Salem Witch Trials (split from Moussaoui thread)

Is it okay to kill in the name of God? Can ethics, morals and technology peacefully co-exist?

Salem Witch Trials (split from Moussaoui thread)

Postby Bill EE » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:25 pm

In response to this post - thread split by umop

Lonewulf wrote:
The Salem Witch Trials?


Just a nit but the Salem Witch trials were not about witchcraft being bad on religous reasons but because it had been used to cause harm. I know that this did not happend because witchcraft isn't real but they did not.
"Mars" is also a chocolate bar found on Earth. These are highly concentrated sources of carbohydrates, which are of vital importance to many carbon based life forms. Mars bars are slightly rippled with a flat underside. They are sometimes used in English courtship rituals in which the female performs various allegorical oral acts with the chocolate bar, which is donated by the male as part payment for this spectacle.
User avatar
Bill EE
Disinformation Agent
Disinformation Agent
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 5:04 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Postby Lonewulf » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:38 pm

Bill EE wrote:Lonewulf wrote:
The Salem Witch Trials?


Just a nit but the Salem Witch trials were not about witchcraft being bad on religous reasons but because it had been used to cause harm. I know that this did not happend because witchcraft isn't real but they did not.


The idea of "witchcraft" came about because of religious ideas and ideals, and Salem was a very religious-oriented community; people were punished for doing anything "witchly", like dancing, as was common in the period amongst the Calvinists.

The idea of "witchcraft" came from a distorted view of pagan rituals and beliefs; the spirit guide became a witch's familiar, and they used it as an excuse to hate the "evil satanists"; the ideas evolved from that.

Witchcraft is bad on religious grounds, it's believed to be purely harmful on the grounds that it's power derived from Satan and demons, and claiming someone was a witch was to claim them a servant of the Devil; that is religious justification.
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby Bill EE » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:59 pm

But in the case of the Salem (now Danvers) witchcraft charges were causing harm to some girls. Believe what you want as far as the case for witchcraft being real but this was not a case of one religious group attempting to dominate/eliminate another. Tituba (a slave from the west indies) had been living in the community and practicing witchcraft for years. She would tell fortunes by the patterns of effs whites in a glass. Why the girls were acting the way they were is a matter for debate but some believe it was a land grab. The acused were living outside of town and had valuable land.
"Mars" is also a chocolate bar found on Earth. These are highly concentrated sources of carbohydrates, which are of vital importance to many carbon based life forms. Mars bars are slightly rippled with a flat underside. They are sometimes used in English courtship rituals in which the female performs various allegorical oral acts with the chocolate bar, which is donated by the male as part payment for this spectacle.
User avatar
Bill EE
Disinformation Agent
Disinformation Agent
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 5:04 am
Location: San Diego, CA

Postby umop ap!sdn » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:44 pm

Lonewulf wrote:it's believed to be purely harmful on the grounds that it's power derived from Satan and demons, and claiming someone was a witch was to claim them a servant of the Devil; that is religious justification.

And what's really sad is that witchcraft was/is actually nothing more than the practice of Wicca. But back then, anything other than Christianity was considered taboo. :roll:
umop ap!sdn
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4595
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:24 pm

Postby Lonewulf » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:08 pm

umop ap!sdn wrote:And what's really sad is that witchcraft was/is actually nothing more than the practice of Wicca. But back then, anything other than Christianity was considered taboo. :roll:


I'm dubious of this claim. Wasn't Wicca developed only recently, in 1950 or thereabouts? Or is that just "as it exists today"?
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby umop ap!sdn » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:28 pm

Well I'll be - Wikipedia says it was first introduced in '54, and that there's some debate as to whether it was invented right then or existed earlier in secrecy.

Guess you're right. #-o
umop ap!sdn
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4595
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:24 pm

Postby Lance » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:47 pm

But pagan religions have been around for a long time. I think wicca is just a formalization of ideas that have existed for millenia.

blessed be
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a few hours.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
Lance
Administrator
Administrator
Cheeseburger Swilling Lard-Ass who needs to put down the remote and get off the couch.
 
Posts: 91392
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Oswego, IL

Postby Lonewulf » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:25 pm

Lance wrote:But pagan religions have been around for a long time. I think wicca is just a formalization of ideas that have existed for millenia.

blessed be


That's a lot of religions to shove under one heading.

Which one, in particular, are you referring to?
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby Lance » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:35 pm

Okay, sorry... I should have said "some" ideas. I didn't mean all paganism.
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a few hours.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
Lance
Administrator
Administrator
Cheeseburger Swilling Lard-Ass who needs to put down the remote and get off the couch.
 
Posts: 91392
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Oswego, IL

Postby Enzo » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:36 am

And I'm not so sure that the "witches" of that earlier era were considered members of some particular group. Witch was simply a generic term for someone connected with evil/satan. Practicing witchcraft was not a specific set of practices. If you did witch-like things, you were a witch.
User avatar
Enzo
Enlightened One
Enlightened One
Chortling with glee!
 
Posts: 11956
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:30 am
Location: Lansing, Michigan

Postby Lance » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:03 am

Enzo wrote:If you did witch-like things, you were a witch.

Or weighed the same as a duck... That meant you were a witch too.
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a few hours.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
Lance
Administrator
Administrator
Cheeseburger Swilling Lard-Ass who needs to put down the remote and get off the couch.
 
Posts: 91392
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Oswego, IL

Postby Lonewulf » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:19 am

Enzo wrote:And I'm not so sure that the "witches" of that earlier era were considered members of some particular group. Witch was simply a generic term for someone connected with evil/satan. Practicing witchcraft was not a specific set of practices. If you did witch-like things, you were a witch.


I'm not sure I understand.

If witches commit witchly acts, they are "servants of the devil".

If they are "servants of the devil", they should be stopped, discouraged, converted, or killed. This is primarily based on religious motivations, religious reasons, and religious mindsets.

How is this not a case of religion? Because it's not actually two seperate religions at each other?

So if I kill someone in the name of religion, I'm not killing someone in the name of religion if they're not religious or share my religion?

How does this make sense? I'm not sure I comprehend.
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby Enzo » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:01 am

Nothing cosmic I assure you. Earlier, umop suggested that the witches were practicing Wicca, implying that they were all of a particular sect - Wiccans. Aside from your fact that the name Wicca was of recent manufacture, I was asserting that the "witches" of old were not some monolithic group of some consistent belief set, but were instead random people who did something the locals didn;t like, that being enough to brand one as a witch. In other words all it took to be a witch was to do something witch like - IN THE EYES OF THE COMMUNITY. One did not have to be a member of a particular group.

I did not use the term religion in my post. I don't know what your in the name of religion examples are meant to demonstrate. I get the impression you are assuming that which I try to cast doubt upon, namely that witches were not in fact part of a particular belief or organized movement of any sort. But in response: If I kill a soldier, you could reason, gee, Muslims kill soldiers, therefore Enzo is a Muslim. Not logically valid, nor factually correct, but it is the parallel of the witch persecution reasoning. Just because someone thinks I am a Muslim doesn't mean I am one. And for that matter, if a Sunni kills a Shiite, it isn't necessarily a religious killing, the Sunni could simply be a criminal, and religious affiliation a mere coincidence.

Witchly acts might be real or imagined, and their connection to satan would have been in the eye of the beholder. The potential witch didn't need to be an overt satan worshiper or anything so fancy. Exhaling cigarette smoke through the nostrils rather than the mouth could result in a "she breathed fire" charge. SOmeone has misfortune befall him, and he can claim it was because the "witch" at the end of the street cast a spell on him. This without the witch having actually done anything of the sort. The claim makes her a witch, not necessarily any eveidence. SO witches might not be serving the devil outside of the twisted perception of the local populace. All it took was someone not liking you, and you could easily become a "witch."

A more modern parallel might be "communists." I know folks who label as communist anyone who gets in their way. A store management that doesn't refund money in a desired manner. A county government that insists property taxes be paid. Whatever. These are not communists, but a angry fellow might call them that. And 50 years ago, it would have stuck. I remember Joe McCarthy.
User avatar
Enzo
Enlightened One
Enlightened One
Chortling with glee!
 
Posts: 11956
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:30 am
Location: Lansing, Michigan

Postby Lonewulf » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:35 am

Actually, I'll cut to the chase here: I was mainly thinking you were going with Bill EE claiming

Bill EE wrote:Just a nit but the Salem Witch trials were not about witchcraft being bad on religous reasons


Enzo wrote: Aside from your fact that the name Wicca was of recent manufacture, I was asserting that the "witches" of old were not some monolithic group of some consistent belief set, but were instead random people who did something the locals didn;t like, that being enough to brand one as a witch. In other words all it took to be a witch was to do something witch like - IN THE EYES OF THE COMMUNITY. One did not have to be a member of a particular group.


Well, agreed. I don't know why I was assuming you were arguing Bill EE's point instead of saying that.

But in response: If I kill a soldier, you could reason, gee, Muslims kill soldiers, therefore Enzo is a Muslim. Not logically valid, nor factually correct, but it is the parallel of the witch persecution reasoning. Just because someone thinks I am a Muslim doesn't mean I am one. And for that matter, if a Sunni kills a Shiite, it isn't necessarily a religious killing, the Sunni could simply be a criminal, and religious affiliation a mere coincidence.


But my point was, even if you share their religion (and aren't, say, a Christian vs. a Muslim), and the Christians decide to go and do something to you negatively based on their religious beliefs, it's still a matter of religious oppression.

Witchly acts might be real or imagined, and their connection to satan would have been in the eye of the beholder. The potential witch didn't need to be an overt satan worshiper or anything so fancy.


Agreed. I know all this.
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby Lance » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:57 pm

Lonewulf wrote:I know all this.

WITCH!
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a few hours.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
Lance
Administrator
Administrator
Cheeseburger Swilling Lard-Ass who needs to put down the remote and get off the couch.
 
Posts: 91392
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Oswego, IL

Postby Мастер » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:14 pm

Lance wrote:
Lonewulf wrote:I know all this.

WITCH!


Shouldn't that be WARLOCK!
They call me Mr Celsius!
User avatar
Мастер
Moderator
Moderator
Злой Мудак
Mauerspecht
 
Posts: 23929
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:56 pm
Location: Far from Damascus

Postby Lance » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:04 pm

Khrushchev's Other Shoe wrote:
Lance wrote:
Lonewulf wrote:I know all this.

WITCH!

Shouldn't that be WARLOCK!

I don't know. Does he float?
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a few hours.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
Lance
Administrator
Administrator
Cheeseburger Swilling Lard-Ass who needs to put down the remote and get off the couch.
 
Posts: 91392
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Oswego, IL

Postby umop ap!sdn » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:48 pm

Hey no fair drowning our canine (lupine?) friend. Even if he is always threatening to eat cats...
umop ap!sdn
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4595
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:24 pm

Postby Lonewulf » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:01 pm

Canine and lupine work. Canis Lupus Lupus is the grey wolf, after all.

I'd be more of Canis Lupus Daemonis.
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby Lance » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:07 pm

I was thinking Canis Loopy
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a few hours.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
User avatar
Lance
Administrator
Administrator
Cheeseburger Swilling Lard-Ass who needs to put down the remote and get off the couch.
 
Posts: 91392
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:51 pm
Location: Oswego, IL

Postby Lonewulf » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:18 pm

Lance wrote:I was thinking Canis Loopy


Speak for yourself, Lama Glama.
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Postby umop ap!sdn » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:03 pm

Lonewulf wrote:I'd be more of Canis Lupus Daemonis.

Okay, just know that daimon originally meant divine being. :mrgreen:
umop ap!sdn
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4595
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 5:24 pm

Postby Lonewulf » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:16 pm

Divine, infernal, it doesn't matter. It's the actions that make you. A powerful creature can save lives as much as he can destroy them; and do both at the same time. He can make monsters, and he can destroy them; and do both simultaneously. As to whether these actions are evil or not... it depends on if you're the monster being created, or the one being destroyed.
Writing.com Account

When God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD

Gazing into the Eye of the Universe
User avatar
Lonewulf
Puppet Master
Puppet Master
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:58 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas


Return to Religion and Spirituality

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron