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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:59 am

Enzo wrote:teri, you have mentioned several times now that you were clinically dead and no blood pumping and how your brain couldn't be functioning therefore.

There is oxygen and nutrients in your blood yet even when the heart stops. It is not an all or nothing deal like the electricity that powers the table lamp. if the power is turned off, the table lamps goes dark instantly. But in your body, there are residual levels of stuff that remain, and the brain makes use of them as best as it can. it may not have enough to maintain full function, but relieved of much of its functional need by your losing consciousness, the brain continues some function that slowly diminishes.

I won't quibble with your experience, you felt what you felt. But as your brain faded, things in your mind would occur. I passed out once standing. I recall it as a feeling of warmth and darkness covering me. Until I blacked completely out. My eyes were open, and the lighting in the room never dimmed, but my perception of it was growing darkness. That was my brain interpreting the results of loss of whatever. My eyes never really saw darkness, but that is what is in my memory nonetheless.

What my rambling here means is that your brain did continue to function at some level. Just as if I was driving the interstate at 70mph and ran out of gas. The car would continue in motion and drift to a stop. That drift could be a half a mile even. How can my car drive a half a mile with no gas? On the residual energy of its motion. Your brain was living off the residual energy in its cells and blood.


I agree the brain would slowly trickle to a stop, I don't agree the brain would use its last resources to generate a vivid dream.
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:09 am

azazul wrote:
teri tati wrote:Make up your mind Azazul, according to your scenario the brain blacks out when the body is clinically dead. Now you're back pedaling and saying the brain may still be functioning on its own, without body vital functions.


From the second post on this page...
azazul wrote:I do not know when the brain stops in this process,

Nope, I still maintain the same position I did to begin with. No backpedalling. Yes, I say the brain might keep working without blood flow. But since you are an expert on the inner-workings of the brain, please tell me why this is wrong.

teri tait wrote:Make up your mind which futile ridiculous stand you want to base your opinions on and let me know. Then I'll be happy to read what you have to say. Please be sure of your choice and stick with it though, OK?
You can repeat over and over how ridiculous my statements are, but that does not make it true. More than likely you are trying to get attention away from my actual arguments and avoiding my questions.

azazul wrote:If you can show that somebody remembered such a conversation when the brain is actually not recording, and not just when the heart has stopped, then I would have to concede the point. Is there any point at which you must concede the point besides "proving other planes do not exist"?


First you say the brain functions stop by blacking out during the time of clinical death. Then you say it continues to generate dreams. Which is it?
I'm talking about the period of clinical death when the body shows no sign of life, before any resusitation is established.

If you are saying this is the blackout period, then I ask you AGAIN how is it some NDE include statements of the patient seeing himself and his surroundings, including the medical treatment as it is rendered? Before they are resusitated.
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:14 am

Azazul, I found an arcticle on sleep oddities and NDE here while most of the arcticle talks about strange sleep disorders, it does have some information pertinent to our discussion:

"...During REM sleep, many body functions are known to change. Muscles lose their tone, for example.

NDEs appear not to be dreams, however.

"Most dreaming occurs in REM sleep and despite the possible contribution to NDE by REM-intrusion, NDE and dreams fundamentally differ," Nelson explains. "Near-death experiences are recalled with an intense sense of realness that contrasts sharply to dreams.  Furthermore, NDEs lack the bizarre characteristics of dreams."

The new study does not answer the question of whether near-death experiences have a biological rather than paranormal basis, Nelson told LiveScience, but he plans further research in an effort to settle that issue."
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:58 am

Here'san article for you, Lonewulf regarding the scientific study of conciousness/soul. Their research has been ongoing since 1987. It is based on nuerons and the brain as a separate division from the mind. You may find it interesting.
Enjoy :)
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:00 am

Khrushchev's Other Shoe wrote:Do numbers truly exist? If so, why?


Yes KOS numbers exist, they must exist so that we can count our blessings ;)
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Postby umop ap!sdn » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:30 am

teri tait wrote:NDEs appear not to be dreams, however.

"Near-death experiences are recalled with an intense sense of realness that contrasts sharply to dreams.  Furthermore, NDEs lack the bizarre characteristics of dreams."

I'll say for sure that my "AP" episodes certainly aren't dreams. In fact, this description of NDEs fits AP quite nicely! :)

They sometimes do occur during a dream though - and not a lucid one at that. When it happens I'll realize that I'm AP'ing but not that I'm dreaming until after both the dream and the AP end.
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Postby Enzo » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:33 am

NDEs are not dreams, they are more like Deja Vu. It is what is left in your mind by the experience.

I don't recall the name, but one surgeon had enough people reporting OBEs and telling him they watched the whole thing and saw the entire room in great detail looking down on everyone from above, that he put a picture on the top side of his operating table light where anyone hovering would have easily seen it, but it was not visible from below. It was some basic image, nothing esoteric or complex. A sailboat or a smiley face or something.

Not one person who reported an OBE could identify the image.
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:41 am

Here is another arcticle that covers most of the issues brought up by Azazul, Lonewulf & Enzo. I bolded the part relevant to Enzo question on brain activity.

Tijn Touber
This article appeared in Ode issue: 29

Cardiologist Pim van Lommel did a monumental study of near-death experiences which raises fascinating questions about life after death, DNA, the collective unconscious, and everyone's karma.

When the The Lancet published his study of near-death experiences, Dutch cardiologist Pim van Lommel couldn't have known it would make him into one of the world's most-talked-about scientists. It seems everyone wants to know about the man who managed to get his study of this controversial topic published in one of the leading journals of medical research. Yet it's not really surprising that its publication in 2001 created a stir. Never before had such a systematic study been conducted into the experiences of people who were declared dead and then came back to life. And never before have we seen such a clear illustration of how these people's stories could affect our way of thinking about life and death. Van Lommel, 63, isn't one to seek name and fame. On this lovely summer day in his garden near the Dutch city of Arnhem, he displays more interest in what's going on at Ode magazine than in his own story. That same deep curiosity was at work 35 years ago when Van Lommel, working as a physician's assistant in a hospital, listened intently to a patient talk about her near-death experience. He was immediately fascinated. But it wasn't until years later, as he read the book Return from Tomorrow in which the American doctor George Ritchie describes his own near-death experience in detail, that Van Lommel wondered if there were many other people who had undergone similar experiences. Van Lommel decided from then on to ask all his patients whether they remembered anything that had happened during their cardiac arrests. "The answer was usually no but sometimes why? When I heard the latter, I extended the office visit." Over two years he heard stories from 12 patients and his scientific curiosity was piqued. Those stories were the beginning of a years-long study.

I was looking down at my own body from up above and saw doctors and nurses fighting for my life. I could hear what they were saying. Then I got a warm feeling and I was in a tunnel. At the end of that tunnel was a bright, warm, white, vibrating light. It was beautiful. It gave me a feeling of peace and confidence. I floated towards it. The warm feeling became stronger and stronger. I felt at home, loved, nearly ecstatic. I saw my life flash before me. Suddenly I felt the pain of the accident once again and shot back into my body. I was furious that the doctors had brought me back.

Just about every description of a near-death experience is this beautiful. People feel connected and supported. They grasp how the universe works. They experience unconditional love. They feel free of the pressing concerns of earthly existence. Who wouldn't want such an experience? "It sounds fantastic, doesn't it?" Van Lommel laughs. "But it's not always easy to deal with. When people come back, they often have the feeling they're being imprisoned. And it can take years before they are able or have the courage to integrate the insights they've gained into their everyday life."
Still, a majority of people who have had a near-death experience describe it as magnificent and say it enriched their lives. Van Lommel explains, "The most important thing people are left with is that they are no longer afraid of death. This is because they have experienced that their consciousness lives on, that there is continuity. Their life and their identity don't end when the body dies. They simply have the feeling they're taking off their coat." That may sound like it's coming from someone who's spent a little too much time hanging around New Age bookstores. But from what Van Lommel has seen, near-death experiences are not at all limited to members of the "spiritual" community. They are just as prevalent among people who were extremely skeptical about the topic beforehand.

I became detached from the body and hovered within and around it. It was possible to see the surrounding bedroom and my body even though my eyes were closed. I was suddenly able to think hundreds or thousands of times faster and with greater clarity than is humanly normal or possible. At this point I realized and accepted that I had died. It was time to move on. It was a feeling of total peace completely without fear or pain.



The most remarkable thing, Van Lommel says, is that his patients have such consciousness-expanding experiences while their brains register no activity. But that's impossible, according to the current level of medical knowledge. Because most scientists believe that consciousness occurs in the brain, this creates a mystery: How can people experience consciousness while they are unconscious during a cardiac arrest (a clinical death)?
After all those years of intensive study, Van Lommel still speaks with reverence about the miracle of the near-death experience. "At that moment these people are not only conscious; their consciousness is even more expansive than ever. They can think extremely clearly, have memories going back to their earliest childhood and experience an intense connection with everything and everyone around them. And yet the brain shows no activity at all!"
This has raised a number of large questions for Van Lommel: "What is consciousness and where is it located? What is my identity? Who is doing the observing when I see my body down there on the operating table? What is life? What is death?"

The body I observed laying in bed was mine, but I knew it wasn't time to leave. My time on earth wasn't up yet; there was still a purpose.

In order to convince his colleagues of the validity of these new insights, Van Lommel first had to demonstrate that this expansion of the consciousness occurred, in fact, during the period of brain death. It was not difficult to prove. Patients were often able to describe precisely what had happened during their cardiac arrest. They knew, for example, exactly where the nurse put their dentures or what doctors and family members had said. How would someone whose brain wasn't active know these things?
Nevertheless, some scientists continue to assert that these experiences must happen at a time when there is still some brain function going on. Van Lommel is crystal clear in his response: "When the heart stops beating, blood flow stops within a second. Then, 6.5 seconds later, EEG activity starts to change due to the shortage of oxygen. After 15 seconds there is a straight, flat line and the electrical activity in the cerebral cortex has disappeared completely. We cannot measure the brain stem, but testing on animals has demonstrated that activity has ceased there as well. Moreover, you can prove that the brain stem is no longer functioning because it regulates our basic reflexes, such as the pupil response and swallowing reflex, which no longer respond. So you can easily stick a tube down someone's throat. The respiratory centre also shuts down. If the individual is not reanimated within five to 10 minutes, their brain cells are irreversibly damaged."
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But...In your hands you hold a torch for many eyes to see, So hold it high that they may light their candlewicks from thee.
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:26 am

umop ap!sdn wrote:
teri tait wrote:NDEs appear not to be dreams, however.

"Near-death experiences are recalled with an intense sense of realness that contrasts sharply to dreams. Furthermore, NDEs lack the bizarre characteristics of dreams."

I'll say for sure that my "AP" episodes certainly aren't dreams. In fact, this description of NDEs fits AP quite nicely! :)

They sometimes do occur during a dream though - and not a lucid one at that. When it happens I'll realize that I'm AP'ing but not that I'm dreaming until after both the dream and the AP end.


AP is very interesting. I have done that a few times. I almost always dream in the third person. That is, I see myself and the other people in the dream like a 3d movie or something, as an observer. I have dreamed like that all my life. I mentioned it in another thread somewhere in this forum.
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Postby umop ap!sdn » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:04 am

teri tait wrote:AP is very interesting. I have done that a few times. I almost always dream in the third person. That is, I see myself and the other people in the dream like a 3d movie or something, as an observer. I have dreamed like that all my life. I mentioned it in another thread somewhere in this forum.

Yup, now that you mention it I remember you saying that. You suppose your third person dreams might be related to AP? :D
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:26 am

umop ap!sdn wrote:Yup, now that you mention it I remember you saying that. You suppose your third person dreams might be related to AP? :D


Maybe, the few times I APed it was with that perspective as well. Except one time, I focused on a specific target. I concentrated on going to the place I was most needed and went to my parents house. My mother was asleep on the couch and I kissed her. Then I walked around checking all the doors and windows to be sure they were locked. I called her a day later and described what I saw and the time and sure enough, she had fallen asleep on the couch :). Maybe that's more along the lines of remote viewing though.
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Postby Halcyon Dayz, FCD » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:48 am

I have my doubts about the scientific unbiasedness of Van Pommel.
He is associated with an organisation that, very subtly, opposes
organ-donor-ship on metaphysical grounds.

When I'm dead I'm definitely going to insist on a brain PET-scan.
Just to make sure. :wink:
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:32 am

Halcyon Dayz wrote:I have my doubts about the scientific unbiasedness of Van Pommel.
He is associated with an organisation that, very subtly, opposes
organ-donor-ship on metaphysical grounds.

When I'm dead I'm definitely going to insist on a brain PET-scan.
Just to make sure. :wink:


:) dibs on Halcyon's retinas!!!
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Postby Lonewulf » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:30 am

As for the brain using its last resources to create a vivid dream: Why not? I know I mentioned that a dead brain would be "dead", but I was speaking without thinking. Now that I think about it, dreaming wouldn't be such a big deal as the "last acts" before it died...

It doesn't take a lot of the brain's resources to dream. I mean, that's what sleeping is all about; using less resources to "recharge" yourself. If dreaming took a lot of resources, then sleeping would be a draining activity.

People often equate dying with the "eternal sleep". I never thought of the brain being able to dream as it was dying before, though, but it's actually kind of a neat thought, in a way...
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Postby azazul » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:00 pm

teri tait wrote:First you say the brain functions stop by blacking out during the time of clinical death. Then you say it continues to generate dreams. Which is it?
I'm talking about the period of clinical death when the body shows no sign of life, before any resusitation is established.

If you are saying this is the blackout period, then I ask you AGAIN how is it some NDE include statements of the patient seeing himself and his surroundings, including the medical treatment as it is rendered?

There's still no change in my stance.

From my scond post on page 3:
azazul wrote:If your brain is not functioning then it would not be recording information, you would not have a blank space there or anything, it would have never happened in your frame of reference.

Take careful note of the if at the beginning of that statement. The point is that I do not know when brain function is lost, if it is lost, then you are correct, there is no way the brain could dream or put in memories during that. To you it would be like nothing happened. So my point still is that if you can show that these people have actually lost brain function, and remembered stuff that happened, then you've got me.

teri tait wrote:Azazul, I found an arcticle on sleep oddities and NDE here while most of the arcticle talks about strange sleep disorders, it does have some information pertinent to our discussion:

Yes, it appears that the NDE's may not be dreams. But you also seem to not take the last sentence there to heart.

The new study does not answer the question of whether near-death experiences have a biological rather than paranormal basis

To you, there must be other planes of existence and it has been proven to you. The only reason I got into this is because there is no way it could have been proven to you, if it was then it could be proven to all those here.
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Postby teri tait » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:32 pm

I never had to be convinced of an afterlife, that is something I have always believed, my NDE just reinforced my conviction. Regardless it was fun talking about it and I learned a few things I did not know prior to this discussion. Thanks guys! :)
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Postby azazul » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:38 pm

teri tait wrote:I never had to be convinced of an afterlife, that is something I have always believed, my NDE just reinforced my conviction. Regardless it was fun talking about it and I learned a few things I did not know prior to this discussion. Thanks guys!

I enjoyed it as well.
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Postby Dragon Star » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:04 pm

A happy ending? :shock:

*Waits for the A-Bomb.*
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Postby Lonewulf » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:20 pm

You all suck! You're all horrible, demented, retarded idiots!

I'd go on, but my heart's just not into it.
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Postby azazul » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:14 pm

Dragon Star wrote:A happy ending?

Don't be a buckfutter.
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Postby Dragon Star » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:07 pm

azazul wrote:
Dragon Star wrote:A happy ending?

Don't be a buckfutter.


:lol:
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