Do Heaven and Hell truly exist? If so, why?

[teri tait]

The flipside of this is I don't put very much stock in your argument as you cannot give any evidence that other planes of existence don't exist.

This is exactly why those ridiculous claims like the Invisible Pink Unicorn exist, as you cannot prove the non-existence of the IPU, I personally despise such people that come up with lies just to make a point, but this is why it was done. Science in general seems to go with the notion not to make up things to explain everything around you. You need to come up with the reproducible, verifiable evidence for the possible existence first. There is no proving something does not exist.

Exactly, so why should I believe an argument that has no basis? I have every reason to believe my own experience and no reason to disbelieve other accounts. I can't say heaven or hell exists exactly as described by each individual testimony of such things but I can believe their experiences until it is disproven. Who am I to say they are wrong without proof?

[teri tait]

How can I prove that other planes don't exist? You might as well ask me to prove the nonexistance of God.

You're basically saying, "Something happened to me that is unshakeable to me, and is evidence of an afterlife. Prove the impossible, and I'll change my mind."

Why bother with debate or discussion in the first place? Hasn't it all been a waste of time? You don't care what others think or say, you demand them to prove the impossible, and you don't seem to want to "convert" other people. So what was the whole point?

Hey you made the thread and I gave my answer to your question.
I don't care to convert anyone nor will I ever be convinced to believe in nothing, just like you said. I just gave my thoughts, you decided to make it a debate without any evidence or personal experience to support your opinion. I can't prove anything that happened to me other than the medical records which cannot show what my state of conciousness was while I was clinically dead. You may believe me or not but you cannot convince me it didn't happen because I was the one that experienced it. If we were discussing the account of a third party testimony (like scripture) I would feel the same way. Sort of the reverse doubting thomas, I guess.

[Lonewulf]

But then, who has the ability to say what is right without proof? The claim that a heaven and a hell must exist in the way that is described in the Bible is fallacious to me.

Believing in something without having any reason to is something that is often discouraged in anything that matters; but religion does matter, doesn't it? Many consider it harmless except when talking in specific cases of fundamentalists, but religion and spiritual belief is far more than just belief, it's also perception; how you view the world, what you see as "right" and "wrong".

You claim you "felt joy" in those 10 minutes. Well, does that necessarily prove a heaven, or just an afterlife? Might the afterlife be random? Might it have a structure that we don't have a clue about? Are you entirely 100% sure that it's a memory that's 100% reliable? I'm not.

Who can say? Who knows?

[teri tait]

But then, who has the ability to say what is right without proof? The claim that a heaven and a hell must exist in the way that is described in the Bible is fallacious to me.

Believing in something without having any reason to is something that is often discouraged in anything that matters; but religion does matter, doesn't it? Many consider it harmless except when talking in specific cases of fundamentalists, but religion and spiritual belief is far more than just belief, it's also perception; how you view the world, what you see as "right" and "wrong".

You claim you "felt joy" in those 10 minutes. Well, does that necessarily prove a heaven, or just an afterlife? Might the afterlife be random? Might it have a structure that we don't have a clue about? Are you entirely 100% sure that it's a memory that's 100% reliable? I'm not.

Who can say? Who knows?

I can only give my opinion, like you. Was I in heaven? I don't know. Was I in another plane of existence? Yes. Is the memory entirely 100% accurate? Yes.
I didn't just feel joy, it was more of a complete all encompassing sheer happiness that words cannot fully describe. No cares, no worries, no pain and surrounded by loved ones. It felt like I was there much longer than 10 minutes but then time is not a factor except in the physical plane.

[azazul]

The flipside of this is I don't put very much stock in your argument as you cannot give any evidence that other planes of existence don't exist.

This is exactly why those ridiculous claims like the Invisible Pink Unicorn exist, as you cannot prove the non-existence of the IPU, I personally despise such people that come up with lies just to make a point, but this is why it was done. Science in general seems to go with the notion not to make up things to explain everything around you. You need to come up with the reproducible, verifiable evidence for the possible existence first. There is no proving something does not exist.

Exactly, so why should I believe an argument that has no basis? I have every reason to believe my own experience and no reason to disbelieve other accounts. I can't say heaven or hell exists exactly as described by each individual testimony of such things but I can believe their experiences until it is disproven. Who am I to say they are wrong without proof?

Exactly what? You do not have every reason to believe your own experience, memory is not as reliable as most people think it is, plus you were unconscious through this whole thing which means anything you "saw" is no more reliable than any dream you have. Who are you to believe people's testimonies without proof. I think you completely skipped the reproducible, verifiable part. This means there is no need to believe in "other planes of existence" without being able to reproduce or verify the claims made.

It felt like I was there much longer than 10 minutes but then time is not a factor except in the physical plane.

Time is not a factor when unconscious either.

[teri tait]

I have no reason to doubt my own memory. Nor do I have any reason to think I was dreaming. I was clinically dead, so how was I dreaming?

[azazul]

I have no reason to doubt my own memory. Nor do I have any reason to think I was dreaming. I was clinically dead, so how was I dreaming?

You were unconscious when you drifted into death and then were unconscious when you became alive once again. I do not know when the brain stops in this process, but you could dream right up to when it stopped functioning and can pick up where it left off once it is functioning again. If your brain is not functioning then it would not be recording information, you would not have a blank space there or anything, it would have never happened in your frame of reference. During all of this time, you would obviously be unconscious which opens up the possibility for it to be a dream.

[teri tait]

In looking at what I wrote I see I did say unconcious for three hours. Let me clarify this a little. I meant to say I was unable to move at all for three hours but I was able to hear everything around me. Sorry for the confusion.

[teri tait]

I have no reason to doubt my own memory. Nor do I have any reason to think I was dreaming. I was clinically dead, so how was I dreaming?

You were unconscious when you drifted into death and then were unconscious when you became alive once again. I do not know when the brain stops in this process, but you could dream right up to when it stopped functioning and can pick up where it left off once it is functioning again. If your brain is not functioning then it would not be recording information, you would not have a blank space there or anything, it would have never happened in your frame of reference. During all of this time, you would obviously be unconscious which opens up the possibility for it to be a dream.

Its a slim possibility. When I lost conciousness I was far from dreaming. I was soffocating from lack of oxygen akin to drowning. It was painful and terrifying. When I regained conciousness I was in an er room with my hands buckled down and about 5 ivs hanging off me, not to mention a breating apparatus shoved down my lungs "breathing" for me. Again, far from a blissful dreamstate.

[azazul]

Its a slim possibility. When I lost conciousness I was far from dreaming. I was soffocating from lack of oxygen akin to drowning. It was painful and terrifying. When I regained conciousness I was in an er room with my hands buckled down and about 5 ivs hanging off me, not to mention a breating apparatus shoved down my lungs "breathing" for me. Again, far from a blissful dreamstate.

It does not matter what state you are in when losing consciousness, if it did then anesthesia would not be any more effective than operating on somebody when they are wide awake. People who get their chests cut open, heart removed and then another heart put in do not feel their pain until conscious once again, and can indeed enter into a blissful state while the operation is going on. Why can't somebody whose heart stops for a while and then restarts have the same experience?

[teri tait]

Its a slim possibility. When I lost conciousness I was far from dreaming. I was soffocating from lack of oxygen akin to drowning. It was painful and terrifying. When I regained conciousness I was in an er room with my hands buckled down and about 5 ivs hanging off me, not to mention a breating apparatus shoved down my lungs "breathing" for me. Again, far from a blissful dreamstate.

It does not matter what state you are in when losing consciousness, if it did then anesthesia would not be any more effective than operating on somebody when they are wide awake. People who get their chests cut open, heart removed and then another heart put in do not feel their pain until conscious once again, and can indeed enter into a blissful state while the operation is going on. Why can't somebody whose heart stops for a while and then restarts have the same experience?

But if you have no vital signs, no pulse so no blood is carrying needed oxygen to the brain, how is the brain still creating a dream? If you are clinically dead, someone can operate on you and you won't feel it because your nerves will not be carrying any impulses to your clinically dead brain. When you are under anesthisia, your vital signs are monitored carefully so that your brain is not traumatized by lack of oxygen. As Lonewulf pointed out, sometimes the heart is stopped during such operations but they still circulate the blood and carefully monitor the time frame and the status of the person/brain. My blood was laying inert in my veins. In fact, they gave me blood thinners fearing a clot may have occurred. I seriously doubt my brain was functioning in any way, least of all to generate a vivid experience with people I hadn't seen since I was 4 years old.

[azazul]

I already addressed that before.

You were unconscious when you drifted into death and then were unconscious when you became alive once again. I do not know when the brain stops in this process, but you could dream right up to when it stopped functioning and can pick up where it left off once it is functioning again. If your brain is not functioning then it would not be recording information, you would not have a blank space there or anything, it would have never happened in your frame of reference. During all of this time, you would obviously be unconscious which opens up the possibility for it to be a dream.

You do not go from awake to dead, you drift through unconsciousness which means you can dream, then you die, the brain records nothing, so you have no memory of this later. To your brain, it never happened. When you become alive again, you would still be unconscious until the body is revived and restored well enough for you to be conscious. During this time, you can once again dream.

[teri tait]

I already addressed that before.

You were unconscious when you drifted into death and then were unconscious when you became alive once again. I do not know when the brain stops in this process, but you could dream right up to when it stopped functioning and can pick up where it left off once it is functioning again. If your brain is not functioning then it would not be recording information, you would not have a blank space there or anything, it would have never happened in your frame of reference. During all of this time, you would obviously be unconscious which opens up the possibility for it to be a dream.

You do not go from awake to dead, you drift through unconsciousness which means you can dream, then you die, the brain records nothing, so you have no memory of this later. To your brain, it never happened. When you become alive again, you would still be unconscious until the body is revived and restored well enough for you to be conscious. During this time, you can once again dream.

In your opinion that is what happens.

[azazul]

In your opinion that is what happens.

Yes it is, and it is also my opinion that it is much more plausible than other planes of existence. Therefore, no need to invent an idea such as other planes of existence to explain it. But, it is just my opinion.

[teri tait]

In your opinion that is what happens.

Yes it is, and it is also my opinion that it is much more plausible than other planes of existence. Therefore, no need to invent an idea such as other planes of existence to explain it. But, it is just my opinion.

To invent a pat answer for thousands of documented NDE is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Perhaps if you had so sort of data to support your wishful thinking? NDE is documented world wide in all cultures and religious beliefs, it is not based on anything other than a unique experience.
It may have religious connotations to those that experience them or it may not depending on the individual and their own personal beliefs. It is a factual phenomena and there are tons of studies done on such phenomena. None of them can prove your rather weak opinion.

Oftentimes the NDE includes seeing their own body, medical treatment, and conversations ongoing while they are clinically dead. They can give factually correct accounts of the time frame their brain is "blacked out" as you so eloquently put it. If the brain "blacks out" how do you explain this?

[azazul]

To invent a pat answer for thousands of documented NDE is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

Tell me how it is a pat answer.

Perhaps if you had so sort of data to support your wishful thinking?

Right back at you.

NDE is documented world wide in all cultures and religious beliefs, it is not based on anything other than a unique experience.
It may have religious connotations to those that experience them or it may not depending on the individual and their own personal beliefs. It is a factual phenomena and there are tons of studies done on such phenomena.

None of which conflicts with my very weak opinion.

None of them can prove your rather weak opinion.

Oh, this is just opinion too isn't it, and I can say it is the weakest opinion ever made, but that doesn't make it true. Attack the argument itself, don't just dismiss it as a weak opinion.

Oftentimes the NDE includes seeing their own body, medical treatment, and conversations ongoing while they are clinically dead. They can give factually correct accounts of the time frame their brain is "blacked out" as you so eloquently put it. If the brain "blacks out" how do you explain this?

Well, as I said in an earlier post, I don't know when the brain stops. You seem to assume it stops working when the blood stops. Can you provide evidence for that position? The brain works through chemical interactions and electrical impulses, neither of which require blood flow. Therefore, as far as I know, there is no way to show when the brain stops recording information, my posts above were just explaining what would be expected to happen if this point is reached. If you can show that somebody remembered such a conversation when the brain is actually not recording, and not just when the heart has stopped, then I would have to concede the point. Is there any point at which you must concede the point besides "proving other planes do not exist"?

[teri tait]

Make up your mind Azazul, according to your scenario the brain blacks out when the body is clinically dead. Now you're back pedaling and saying the brain may still be functioning on its own, without body vital functions. That's even more laughable than the black out scenario.
Make up your mind which futile ridiculous stand you want to base your opinions on and let me know. Then I'll be happy to read what you have to say. Please be sure of your choice and stick with it though, OK?

[azazul]

Make up your mind Azazul, according to your scenario the brain blacks out when the body is clinically dead. Now you're back pedaling and saying the brain may still be functioning on its own, without body vital functions.

From the second post on this page...

I do not know when the brain stops in this process,

Nope, I still maintain the same position I did to begin with. No backpedalling. Yes, I say the brain might keep working without blood flow. But since you are an expert on the inner-workings of the brain, please tell me why this is wrong.

Make up your mind which futile ridiculous stand you want to base your opinions on and let me know. Then I'll be happy to read what you have to say. Please be sure of your choice and stick with it though, OK?

You can repeat over and over how ridiculous my statements are, but that does not make it true. More than likely you are trying to get attention away from my actual arguments and avoiding my questions.

If you can show that somebody remembered such a conversation when the brain is actually not recording, and not just when the heart has stopped, then I would have to concede the point. Is there any point at which you must concede the point besides "proving other planes do not exist"?

[Мастер]

You can repeat over and over how ridiculous my statements are, but that does not make them true.

I do not think this is what you meant to write!

But while we're at it:

Do numbers truly exist? If so, why?

[azazul]

You can repeat over and over how ridiculous my statements are, but that does not make them true.

I do not think this is what you meant to write!

Thanks, I changed it.

But while we're at it:

Do numbers truly exist? If so, why?

I am not sure what you are really asking. To me it is like asking do letters exist. Both are just meant to represent the world around us in a way such that we can communicate meaningfully about it.

[Enzo]

teri, you have mentioned several times now that you were clinically dead and no blood pumping and how your brain couldn't be functioning therefore.

There is oxygen and nutrients in your blood yet even when the heart stops. It is not an all or nothing deal like the electricity that powers the table lamp. if the power is turned off, the table lamps goes dark instantly. But in your body, there are residual levels of stuff that remain, and the brain makes use of them as best as it can. it may not have enough to maintain full function, but relieved of much of its functional need by your losing consciousness, the brain continues some function that slowly diminishes.

I won't quibble with your experience, you felt what you felt. But as your brain faded, things in your mind would occur. I passed out once standing. I recall it as a feeling of warmth and darkness covering me. Until I blacked completely out. My eyes were open, and the lighting in the room never dimmed, but my perception of it was growing darkness. That was my brain interpreting the results of loss of whatever. My eyes never really saw darkness, but that is what is in my memory nonetheless.

What my rambling here means is that your brain did continue to function at some level. Just as if I was driving the interstate at 70mph and ran out of gas. The car would continue in motion and drift to a stop. That drift could be a half a mile even. How can my car drive a half a mile with no gas? On the residual energy of its motion. Your brain was living off the residual energy in its cells and blood.

[Lonewulf]

Do numbers truly exist? If so, why?

A useless question.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Do numbers truly exist? If so, why?

What does truly exist mean?

[Мастер]

Do numbers truly exist? If so, why?

A useless question.

Ask Halcyon Dayz to explain it to you. He understood perfectly.

[Мастер]

I am not sure what you are really asking. To me it is like asking do letters exist.

I think it is exactly like that. Or colors. Or many other things.

Both are just meant to represent the world around us in a way such that we can communicate meaningfully about it.

I just want to know precisely what is meant by existence here.