Blue Monster 65 wrote:Yes, you're right when both are religious, but what about when one is tortured because they don't share the same superstitions (religious beliefs, if you will) as their torturers?
I'd say that's a case of one person oppressing (either motivated by genuine religious conviction, or using religion as a cover for some other motives), and one person resisting oppression (also motivated by his/her religious beliefs - I'm not coming up with any likely ulterior motives for the persecuted).
Blue Monster 65 wrote:You are also correct that one could conclude that religion could be "heroic opposition to oppression, it is about standing up for your beliefs even when the price is the highest one anyone ever has to pay, and the fact that some people cynically exploit religion to suit their own purposes doesn't change that" but does one actually need religion in order to do that? Could one do those things without having any superstitious or religious beliefs or mythologies to fall back on?
I think one certainly could. I don't know how many do.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:Bottom line: do morals come from superstitions?
For some, sure.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:Or are morals the result of what actions are in the best interest of survival?
I guess some will have moral codes based on this. In fact, I think a lot of what people tend to belivee is moral or immoral probably does have an element of survival in it.
The two are also not incompatible; I certainly know that it has been argued that many of the rules in Leviticus were simply good advice for people living in that part of the world at that time.
I think it comes down to what precisely one means by a "moral". It also seems to me a similar conversation took place somewhere here a while ago, although I'm not really sure where that one ended up.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:I guess my opposition (and I think I'm pretty upfront in my bias) to what you title religion and I would call superstition comes from an inability to understand why some people need to have mythology as a controlling force in their lives. "Do good or you'll be punished" - why not do good for the sake of doing good?
Can't help you on that one. I have no idea why people do or think some of the things they do or think. Sometimes I don't know why I do or think what I do or think.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:Your analogy of business is moot
It may be moot for the points you want to make; it's highly relevant for the one I want to make. Both are complex, multi-dimensional phenomena, and people are in them for different reasons, and exhibit different kinds of behaviours. We can say things like, "religion is about oppression", "religion is about control", "religion is about power", "religion is about the truth", "religion is about helping people", "religion is about making the world a better place", etc. If we pick one and ignore the others, we're missing something. Similarly, we could say, "business is about making money", "business is about power", "business is about making products that improve people's lives", "business is about making the world a better place", "business is about polluting the earth and then covering it up", and so on. All of these things happen in business. If we pick one, and ignore the others, have we captured the nature of business?
Blue Monster 65 wrote:unless you are sincerely putting forth the proposition that one could hold beliefs in business practices in the same way one holds religious beliefs. I'm sure some do, but I've yet to meet anyone who actually prays to their employer or their means of making a living. Have you?
I most definitely know
of people who pray when undertaking certain commercial activities. I do not.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:I would ask you this, though: were you indoctrinated into your particular business as a child, under threat of damnation?
No, I wasn't. Nor was I indoctrinated into a particular religion under threat of damnation. As it happens, there were people who were born into certain businesses. I think it was the Roman emperor Constantine who made it compulsory for sons to follow in their fathers' trades. Not sure if failure to comply involved damnation.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:Does your business tell you you have a soul and without it (the business), you're going to die?
Well, I might, if I fail to find another source of income.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:That all others who do not work for the business are damned? Would you willing die for your employer? Kill for your employer? Claim your employer is infallible and damn anyone else for not believing the same?
All of these get at some differences between religion and business. The point I wish to make is that religion is a complicated, multi-dimensional thing, and one can't really say "it's about this" or "it's about that", without missing much of the essence of religions belief/behaviour. Same for business - you can say "it's about greed", or "it's about making products people want", or "it's about helping my family", or "it's about power". All of these capture some aspect of business behaviour; none of them capture all of it. None of these differences cause me to want to say that business defies simple characterisation, but religion doesn't.
Blue Monster 65 wrote:We could argue governments in the same positions, I suppose, and then I would think you'd be more correct in your corrolation, but I'm sure you can point out reasons why I'm wrong. Please do!
I think government would be an excellent analogy! Is government something that protects the weak? Or is it something that throws ites enemies into jail or kills them? Is it something that helps those most in need of help, or is it something that helps those who have the best connections? Is it a source of employment? A source of power? Is it a way to serve the public? Or is it a way to serve onself?
Is government about one of these things, or is it about all of them?