Philippine devotion

[KLA2]

In a bloody display of religious devotion Roman Catholic fanatics in the Philippines have had themselves nailed to the cross as the Christian world marks the day Jesus was crucified.

... They were followed by groups of children who covered their faces as blood from the whips sprayed on to their clothes.

Alex Laranang, 57, said had had himself crucified every year for the past 12 years.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/p ... ay/3937448

Another reason I am not a Christian, or religious.

Seriously. Do these people believe this is what Jesus would want???

[Мастер]

Another reason I am not a Christian, or religious.

I will not argue that you should or should not be either, but did all those folks cooking the books keep you from being an accountant?

[Arneb]

Another reason I am not a Christian, or religious.

I will not argue that you should or should not be either, but did all those folks cooking the books keep you from being an accountant?

Great point, and I do like to add that hysteria, bigotry, exhibitionism and just plain vanilla stupidity aren't limited to, or even fostered, by being religious.

[KLA2]

Another reason I am not a Christian, or religious.

I will not argue that you should or should not be either, but did all those folks cooking the books keep you from being an accountant?

Valid question. Are you saying that lacking any ludicrous religious beliefs, people would do that Philippines stuff anyway, or blow themselves up in crowds of men, women and children from their own country and culture, or withhold medical treatment for their children, or all that other crazy stuff?

{Yeah, I know, don’t knock it if you haven’t tried it.}
:P
Sadly, religious or not, some people will still be crooks. That is a matter of ethics. Do NOT confuse ethics with religion.

[Мастер]

Another reason I am not a Christian, or religious.

I will not argue that you should or should not be either, but did all those folks cooking the books keep you from being an accountant?

Valid question. Are you saying that lacking any ludicrous religious beliefs, people would do that Philippines stuff anyway, or blow themselves up in crowds of men, women and children from their own country and culture, or withhold medical treatment for their children, or all that other crazy stuff?

That wasn't really what I was thinking when I posted, but I imagine at least some of them would.

I guess my way of looking at it is, a typical religion has some sort of belief system. Should not the decision to adopt the religion depend on whether you think the belief system is true or not? I don't see how whether some of the people who hold these beliefs are doing crazy things should enter into it. (If the crazy things are mandatory, that's another thing.) Some accountants are crooks, but that's not a reason not to become an accountant; some religious people are nuts, but I don't think that's a reason not to become religious.

If these people weren't doing crazy things, would you be more likely to adopt their beliefs? Anyone is free to do anything s/he likes, but it seems to me, the decision to be a Chrustian or not, ought to depend on whether you think the Christian doctrine is true or not, not whether Christians are doing nice things are bad things.

Should I avoid being an atheist, based on what a bunch of them did during the Cultural Revolution?

Just my $0.02 HKD. Exchange rates may vary :P

[KLA2]

Ah, Mactep. A master complicator.

Even if religious folks were not currently doing crazy stuff, religion is a slippery slope. Get a large number of people to “believe” concepts that are ludicrously untrue, and convincing a few to take the next few steps and perform actions that go against normal moral precepts or common sense is easier.

The Cultural Revolution. One of the things Mao (following Stalin) did was make himself, “Communism” or the apparatus of the state, a religion.

I am not advocating that all concepts of morality be abandoned or subverted. I advocate that morality be taught, but not attributed to Gods, Devils, Angels or legends going back thousands of years.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Most totalitarian ideologies are cult-like and have elements of an eschatological religion.

The unstoppable forces of history is god.
Marx is it's prophet.
Someday there is going to be an endtime struggle after which there will be paradise on Earth.

Our enemy is irrationality in general, not just any particular flavour of it.

[MM_Dandy]

Are you saying that lacking any ludicrous religious beliefs, people would do that Philippines stuff anyway, or blow themselves up in crowds of men, women and children from their own country and culture, or withhold medical treatment for their children, or all that other crazy stuff?

Mactep has already answered for himself, but allow me to also give my answer to this. The subjects in Millgram's experiments were not aware of the 'victims' religious beliefs. They were not compelled by an overtly religious figure or given the orders in terms of a religious command. They were simply told by an authority figure that they must continue. The religious affiliation of the subjects is not explored directly, but the importance of it is diminished by the reproductions which produced fairly consistent results. So, yes - I believe that even lacking any ludicrous beliefs, people can be compelled to do bad things by any accepted authority figure.

[Arneb]

I'd second that.

We humans behave in all sorts of nasty/ crooked/ crazy/ bigoted/ hysteric/ sociopathic, mean ways. We don't need religion to do it. I find the usual atheist argument, "look at what nasty/ crooked/ crazy/ bigoted/ hysteric/ sociopathic things these religionists are doing. There's religion for you" a bit shortsighted. As well as the standard reliogious anwer, but look at all the wonderful work relisious people are doing. Look at /Jesus/Albert Schweitzer/Janus Korczak/ Johann Sebastian Bach. THERE's religion for you".

"No, I am right". "No, I am". "Wanna fight?" "Take that, you black God-hater!" "Take that, you bigoted hate-preacher!"

And on and on, ad nauseam.

[KLA2]

OK. MM_Dandy, Mactep, excellent points. Since I started this, I cannot just walk away from it. Books of hundreds of pages on these issues have been wtitten by persons 100 times more versed in theology / philosophy than I. If biased, that does not necessarily make them correct. The point I am coming to is that I cannot fairly respond to your excellent arguments without some time and thought, and I am too tired and too slow a typist to do so quickly.

Could take a while to compose.

ETA: I note all responders ducked my question in the OP: Seriously. Do these people believe this is what Jesus would want???" I guess I should have asked, "Seriously. Do you believe this is what Jesus would want???"

[Arneb]

I guess that they would either answer "yes" or just not understand the question. They've been doing it for years, maybe their parents did, how can it be wrong. Something like that, maybe.

[Enzo]

I think that many people wrap whatever they feel like doing in the cloth of "jesus" and that makes it OK to them. We have the Tim Tebow phenomenon here. For non-Americans, he is a football quarterback and Christian showboat. Painting bible verse numbers on his face, and making a show of prayers after successful plays.

COnsider the "good CHristians" who blow up abortion doctors.

To me that is stupid and not even good religion.

First book of the new testament is Matthew, and the 6th chapter spells out that people who make a show of prayer - praying for the sake of being seen doing it - are hypocrites. In my humble estimation, nailing oneself to a cross to then parade through the streets meets that standard of hypocrisy.

It specifically tells you to pray in private.

SO I would tend to think Jesus would not have approved.


But as I said, and in agreement with Arneb, the people who do such stuff would probably argue the point differently.