Some Questions About God

[Lance]

(Based on this conversation.)

But let me ask you; would you be interested in trying to tackle some of the questions of logic some of us have? It seems difficult to try to find answers to some of these questions without someone getting offended.

Sure, fire away.

[Lance]

Here are a couple:

If God is all seeing, knowing, and powerful; how can anything happen that is not His Will?

If everything happens for a reason, or is according to God's Plan, how:

• Can prayer ever change anything?
• Can abortion be wrong?
• Is it okay to hate gay people?

[Enzo]

God created the universe and everything in it. Why did he create Satan? Why did he create flawed humans rather than ones with the built in desire to obey the rules?

Even given free will, our inner construct determines our behavior. Since god made us, how can he be angry with what we do?

I never understood prayer. God would let you die or let some woe befall you, UNLESS you beg for otherwise? He already knows my hamster is dying or my football team is losing, or a member of my church is dying of cancer. He turns it into a quid pro quo?

When i encounter proselytizers, I usually tell them that all you need to know about the bible is in the 6th chapter of Matthew. Among which: do not pray for what you want, god already knows what you need. Sums it up well, I think.

Matthew further tells us not to pray for what we want, but to pray that god's will be done. In fact that is where the "Lord's Prayer" comes from.

[tubeswell]

If God is all seeing, knowing, and powerful; how can anything happen that is not His Will?

What if this god is female?

If everything happens for a reason, or is according to God's Plan, how:

• Can prayer ever change anything?

Prayer is a subconscious plea for absolution, the act of which alleviates those who pray from taking responsibility for getting themselves out of whatever present predicament assails them. So its a mild form of drug use.

If everything happens for a reason, or is according to God's Plan, how:

• Can abortion be wrong?

Freedom of choice must be part of this god's plan.

If everything happens for a reason, or is according to God's Plan, how:

• Is it okay to hate gay people?

Even gay people can be a pain in the arse I guess.

[Lianachan]

Even gay people can be a pain in the arse I guess.

[Dragon Star]

These questions sound similar to our facebook debate. Did that have some influence in your specific questions or you just had them anyway?

[Lance]

These questions sound similar to our facebook debate. Did that have some influence in your specific questions or you just had them anyway?

We had a Facebook debate? Which sides were we on?

[Dragon Star]

These questions sound similar to our facebook debate. Did that have some influence in your specific questions or you just had them anyway?

We had a Facebook debate? Which sides were we on?

Ha, yea we were having a conversation months ago on the very topic but it happened to be on someone else's page and they got all pissed off when we started ganging up on her. I was implying that logically God is either not omnipotent nor omnipresent, or there is no such thing as free will. Under no circumstances can both exist.

[Lance]

These questions sound similar to our facebook debate. Did that have some influence in your specific questions or you just had them anyway?

We had a Facebook debate? Which sides were we on?

Ha, yea we were having a conversation months ago on the very topic but it happened to be on someone else's page and they got all pissed off when we started ganging up on her. I was implying that logically God is either not omnipotent nor omnipresent, or there is no such thing as free will. Under no circumstances can both exist.

Ah, yes, I remember now. Tanya's page. You and I were on the same side.

I think these questions are pretty universal...

[Dragon Star]

Question is how can it not be more universal. I think I could play devil's advocate on just about any topic as I love to debate, but that's the one thing I could never argue is the existence of God through logic. As close as I can come is that A) God is a being or beings that spread live to Earth in order to use us as a case study but is both neither omnipresent or omnipotent, or B) We're in a Matrix style simulation as argued by the statistics of base reality.

Under that, it's stipulated that the odds are somewhere around one in one billion that we are not part of a simulation under a more advanced civilization.

[Lance]

Um, what is "more universal" than universal? I don't understand.

[Dragon Star]

Um, what is "more universal" than universal? I don't understand.

If the universe as we understand it is not the universe at all, but just a program. Much like the multiverse theory only a true and false. Odds are, we live in a false.

[Lance]

I'm familiar with the multiverse theory but I'm still not quite picking up what you're saying.

Are you talking about the idea that we're all just living in a simulation being run by some advanced intelligence that exists outside of our universe or multiverse?

[Dragon Star]

I entertain the possibility. Again, gut feeling says no, but statistically it makes more sense than not. It's very abstract but the more I've pondered it, the more logical it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis

Very recently Elon Musk had a media frenzy about this theory as he believes it to be true.

[Lance]

A lot of very smart people entertain this possibility. And if the universe is infinite, then even the most improbable must eventually happen.

[Dragon Star]

A lot of very smart people entertain this possibility. And if the universe is infinite, then even the most improbable must eventually happen.

You mean infinite multiverse, right? I have a much harder time with a infinite universe, the very concept doesn't make sense to me. Brane theory leading to a multiverse though collisions makes sense...but if anything had a beginning it can't be infinite, and flies in the face of universal expansion. Even if math says it's possible my mind can't grasp the concept of something going from finite to infinite, and something had to come before nothing. The universe as we know it is easily explained, but it's what was first, before anything...that's the question humanity either can never answer, or we actually are in a false reality and that is the explanation itself.

I have the same problem with God. If God created everything and i'm fine with that, what created God? Had to be something before it.

[Lance]

You mean infinite multiverse, right?

An infinite universe or infinite universes in a multiverse are two competing ideas.

I have a much harder time with a infinite universe, the very concept doesn't make sense to me. Brane theory leading to a multiverse though collisions makes sense...but if anything had a beginning it can't be infinite, and flies in the face of universal expansion. Even if math says it's possible my mind can't grasp the concept of something going from finite to infinite, and something had to come before nothing. The universe as we know it is easily explained, but it's what was first, before anything...that's the question humanity either can never answer, or we actually are in a false reality and that is the explanation itself.

I have the same problem with God. If God created everything and i'm fine with that, what created God? Had to be something before it.

I think you are confusing the universe with the observable universe. If TBBT is correct, the observable universe had a finite beginning. But that is different that the universe, into which the observable universe is expanding.

the very concept doesn't make sense to me

And once it does, we have become God.

[Dragon Star]

I'm aware the universe is much larger than the observable universe in an unknown fashion, but the only difference is the speed of light in relation to us. Why would the observable universe expand when the universe itself can not? If it has infinite size, then it has been around for infinite time, where would all of the new matter come from? This would mean that protons don't decay in 10^33 years (or ever). Either space/time is expanding and accelerating or it's not.

For this reason I look at the term infinine as a purely philosophical one, not a scientific one.

[Lance]

I don't claim to understand it... Google the question "If TBBT is correct, how can the universe be infinite?"

[tubeswell]

I'm aware the universe is much larger than the observable universe in an unknown fashion, but the only difference is the speed of light in relation to us. ...

The multiverse hypothetically consists of infinite parallel universes with an infinite number of temporal origins. How should we determine the relative speed of light or any of those universes in relation to us?

[Dragon Star]

I'm aware the universe is much larger than the observable universe in an unknown fashion, but the only difference is the speed of light in relation to us. ...

The multiverse hypothetically consists of infinite parallel universes with an infinite number of temporal origins. How should we determine the relative speed of light or any of those universes in relation to us?

Hypothetically, the only potentially detectable thing between individual multiverses is gravity. As far as parallel universes, theories suggest that the reason quantum mechanics is so weird is because of superposition of a particle existing in both ours and a parallel universe simultaneously. Perhaps communications between parallel universes could place some sort of cosmological constant between two very similar universes to calculate SOL relative to us. It's rather outlandish, but as said...hypothetical.

As far as the notion of infinity, math suggests that infinity is not a number. I can use an equation with infinity to prove that 1=0 which is false, so I'm skeptical that it's possible.

[Lance]

As far as the notion of infinity, math suggests that infinity is not a number.

Who ever said it is a number? I think infinity exists outside the realm of numbers. It is something you can go toward but never reach. Kind of like that one 18 year old blonde girl.

I can use an equation with infinity to prove that 1=0 which is false, so I'm skeptical that it's possible.

Can you show us that equation?

[Dragon Star]

Kind of like that one 18 year old blonde girl.

Mystery solved, lol. That's how I attempt to look at it anyhow, ideas. It's still too much for me to handle the concept, that which has a beginning has an end, so what before the beginning if a beginning does not exist? I have this very issue with God. As a concept it's okay, but he did not make himself, sooooooo?

I can use an equation with infinity to prove that 1=0 which is false, so I'm skeptical that it's possible.

Can you show us that equation?

1 + ∞ = ∞
(1 + ∞) - ∞ = ∞ - ∞
1 + (∞ - ∞) = ∞ - ∞
1 = 0

[tubeswell]

So its feasible to have x, y, and z axes which each represent a gradation between dichotomies of implied magnitude on a continuum from 0 to infinity (or even going from infinitesimal to infinite) without worrying about real numbers? Cool way to deconstruct maths. This supports my argument about not being able to disprove the existence of continua.

[Lance]

1 + ∞ = ∞

I'm not sure I buy into this. And if this isn't valid then neither is what follows.

Mactep, we need you.