The Shroud of Turin

[Lance]

What is it?

How was it made?

Discuss.

[Enzo]

Pretty sure when Jesus died, they went to Joanne Fabric, got a half bolt of muslin, and wrapped him with it endwise. Then the mighty power of the lord burnt an image of the middle ages idea of what Jesus looked like into the cloth in a manner that science cannot possibly discover. Why the lord would do this escapes me, but it gave us a thing to worship until I find a potato chip that looks like the virgin MAry.

[tubeswell]

The Templar Knights really did it, and the picture was framed to look like the Illuminati did it. I can only disavow all knowledge. And AFAICT, it was something about Mary too I think.

[Lianachan]

Medieval trickery!

[Lance]

Um, I wasn't trying to make a case for believing it. I'm just interested if anyone has any thoughts on how it could have been made.

[Enzo]

A little pigment, a brush, a hunk of cloth...

They won't let anyone take reasonable samples (from a forensic point of view), just tiny bits. So results can be challenged. Makes it more mysterious than it needs to be. SO if it isn't clear what the pigment is, that doesn;t bother me. Putting images on cloth? My mom had a hobby in the 1950s, textile painting. Although in her case, it was linen dish towels and she'd paint images of a crying onion or a smiling tomato on them. But she had her special brushes, kind short and stiff, and speciale textile paints. They sell textile paint at hobby stores and yes, Joanne Fabrics.

[Lance]

I think the idea of it being painted was pretty well debunked a long time ago. There is some speculation that it was produced photographically, camera obscura style. But that then begs the question of why there aren't any more examples from the same time period.

[Arneb]

Why not just read the Wikipedia article on it and be done with it? No-one here is a high-profile sindonologist, after all.

[Lance]

I've seen and read a lot about it and I think it's interesting.

YMMV

I thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion, but maybe not.

[Arneb]

Ah, well - maybe some news on the scientific front?

The church seems to be much maligned for not allowing a thorough forensic analysis of the shroud, but I have some sympathy for their point of view, which seems to be:

• As a matter of fact, some people DO revere the Shroud as being the actual, physical shroud, in which the actual physical corpse of Jesus of Nazareth, who is actually Our Lord, Son of God and Saviour, was actually put to an actual grave after his actual biological death by crucifixion and in which, even more importantly he came back to actual, biological life on the third day after his crucifixion. By divine intervention or physical process, the image of the deceased Jesus became imprinted on the shroud.

• This, true or not, is a good thing, because revering Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, Son of God and our Lord And Saviour is a good thing.

• It may well be that the Shroud may just be a shroud of later manufacture, and it may not actually be the actual, physical shroud in which...(see above)

• That is of no concern for the Church, because Revering Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, Son of God and Our Saviour is a good and right thing to do. Doing it by way of reverence towards a particular piece of linen may or may not be historically accurate, but it's way better than not revering JoNtCtSoG,oLaS

• Exposing the Shroud for a piece of medieval trickery might shatter some people's faith and make them not revere JoNtCtSoG,oLaS any more, which might be very, very bad.

• As a side note, it would be bad for tourism.

• Ergo, nobody touches that thing with a forceps again, ever, as long as people revere JoNtCtSoG,oLaS by way of a piece of linen that may or may not be the actual, physical, shroud...(see above)

I like it mainly because it is so inconsistent and sophist, soPR savvy, but also so merciful and tolerant. Also, it has Protestant Atheist Evanglists fuming, which is enough to clinch it for me. If Richard Dawkins starts sneering at it, it can't be all bad.

[Lance]

Are you familiar with the TV show NOVA? Nova and National Geographic collaborated a few years ago with a team that did a new, forensic investigation on the shroud. They weren't able to come to any new conclusions but they were able to debunk some earlier ones.

They debunked the idea that it was painted, or contained any pigment at all in the image area. There was some evidence of red ochre elsewhere on the cloth but the origin of that is known. (Pressing painted copies onto the original in order to venerate them.)

They also debunked the earlier radio carbon date placing it as being made in medieval times. The sample that was first tested was taken from a medieval repair that had been made to the cloth after a fire. A sample from the original cloth proved inconclusive due to contamination with fungus, which made it updatable.

So a lot about the cloth remains a mystery. I make no claim that I believe it to be a supernatural mystery, just that it is intriguing.

The church seems to remain open to further testing so long as it is nondestructive and hopes to be conclusive. After all, they really have nothing to lose. Those who believe will continue to do so in spite of evidence to the contrary. They have done so already, even when it was "proved" to be less than 1,000 years old. But if it's ever proved to be from the right time period, the church could gain a lot.

[Lianachan]

The carbon dating seems pretty secure, and corresponds nicely to the time the shroud was first mentioned. Claims that the dating was done on a patch of later repair are special pleading. Whatever the shroud is, it's medieval.

[Enzo]

OK, I see two questions. First, is it special/holy/supernatural or not. We don't seem to feel it is cosmic, so that question is moot. That leaves how was it made.

If they don;t detect paint, I don;t know if they can detect stain/dye. I think they had henna then say. In any case, absent any god connection, it is just another picture from that era. And I don't know how they made most of them.

[Lance]

Whatever the shroud is, it's medieval.

Yes, I agree that seems most likely.

It's the technique that I'm most interested in.

OK, I see two questions. First, is it special/holy/supernatural or not. We don't seem to feel it is cosmic, so that question is moot. That leaves how was it made.

Right, I do not believe it's supernatural.

If they don;t detect paint, I don;t know if they can detect stain/dye. I think they had henna then say.

If I recall correctly, there was no evidence of anything on or in the fibers. The fibers themselves had changed colors. That's the mystery.

In any case, absent any god connection, it is just another picture from that era. And I don't know how they made most of them.

But that's the thing; it's not. Regardless of which era you believe it to be from, there are no other examples in a similar medium. The shroud is unique in that regard.

I suppose it's possible that some before-his-time genius developed the technique, which he kept secret, then promptly died after creating it, taking the secret with him.

[Enzo]

Or they just haven't developed the technique yet to detect multi-century old staining methods. I am a horses not zebras guy, so the fibers are discolored by some medium that doesn't leave a residue. In my mind, some ordinary guy used to him ordinary techniques, and what we need is an after-his-time genius to come up with the analysis.

The whole ancient aliens thing is built on the concept that long ago, humans were not bright and couldn;t have solved engineering problems on their own. I don't accept that, humans were every bit as bright and creative 5000 years ago as we are today, they just lacked the accumulated knowledge we have. I'd like to think the art problem is similar but in reverse. We are every bit as smart as the artist, we just don't know what he used.

I am drawn to the bumblebee, all my life we heard that it was impossible for it to fly, but the bee didn't know that and so kept flying. And then someone figured out we were not analyzing its flight mechanism well. It is now OK for them to fly. I think we probably will find ultimately something like goats milk or olive oil was used and as the organic material was evaporated/eaten/oxidized away, all that was left was discolored textile.

[Lance]

Well, yeah...

It's the between now and then that I'm interested in.

[tubeswell]

They could've killed some templar knight who was a dead ringer for Hey-zeus, and wrapped him up, only to then discover that there was gold in relic trade.

[Lianachan]

The RationalWiki page about it is very good.

[Мастер]

So, are you asking how it was made, so you can start cranking out your own relics?

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

The cloth itself being from the correct period wouldn't prove much.
Good forgers use materials from the appropriate time.

[Lance]

So, are you asking how it was made, so you can start cranking out your own relics?

You got me.

[Enzo]

I remember some office building long ago. Has the entire wall is windows, the darkened purplish gray ones. large panels, so they have some flex. Air pressure causes them to bow in or out a little. At some point they managed to create an overall image of a large rounded lump with a smaller rounded lump on one side. Naturally this was a vision of the virgin Mary and child. I presume that was the baby Jesus. Although I think it could have been his younger brother Roger, or was that Duane? I think it was in Ohio.

Wherever it was at the time, people heard about it and came from all over the country to worship it.

Like most of my grand schemes, I never did it, but I started planning something for my yard. I was going to put a number of small spotlights around the yard so they'd cast shadows on my garage doors - the two side by side seemed like a large enough canvas. Various bushes would cast shadows on the doors, so the total effect would be they combine to form a vaguely Mother and child shape. A phone call to the local paper, poof instant publicity, and I'd have people lining the road worshiping my garage. Money to be made selling T-shirts, bumper stickers, other religious crap. Oriental Trading Company has entire catalogs of religious crap.

[Мастер]

Oriental Trading Company has entire catalogs of religious crap.

New for 2017! See the "Religious Crap" section!

[Enzo]

Section hell, they have entire catalogs devoted to the devotional.

One of my favorite products is little mint candies in small packets with a bible verse on each. They are called...

Testamints.

[Lianachan]

Section hell, they have entire catalogs devoted to the devotional.

One of my favorite products is little mint candies in small packets with a bible verse on each. They are called...

Testamints.