The Verdict in Saddam's Trial

[Bill_Thompson]

My constitutional law, Saddam had authority over the country and her people as he saw fit. This conviction is an international outrage.



We have seen what sort of people he had to deal with. His firmness and the bloodshed imposed on Iraq was necessary for keeping the overall stability and peace and well being of Iraq.

I think the foreign infidels have made a grave error in this kangaroo circus court.

Every head of every state has to decide who lives and who dies. This is seen on a small scale with death-row inmates, presidental pardons, and even in larger scale with FEMA funding, management and the Katrina disaster. Saddam is no more or no less evil then Clinton who sent troops into Kosovo and into Mogadishu where 1000 Somalians were slaughtered in one single day before the military was pulled out.

Clinton played God on a much larger and bloodier scale. He sent innocent children to their death in Kosovo and yet he did nothing to stop the genocide in Rwanda.

I am sorry. Is reality too hard for you blind liberal cult-of-personality loving brainwashed pansies?

[Lance]

Hot-linking avatars in posts is not a good idea. It will make no sense when KOS changes it. Link to an image on CNN or something,

His firmness and the bloodshed imposed on Iraq was necessary for keeping the overall stability and peace and well being of Iraq.

We have discussed this here before. You're right. It's going to be pretty funny when the U.S. realizes the only way to have peace in Iraq is to give power back to Hussein.

[Bill_Thompson]

It is a dream that Americans have had since the invasion of Kuwait. Many people in the military felt that after the first Gulf War that the job was not done. Even Bush Senior would suggest that he expected the Iraqi population to rise up and take out Saddam.

But we don't want to think of five little bits of information:

(#1) I have been told that there is some legal gray area here by people who have served and been stationed in the Middle East. I have been told that there are some international laws on the books which one could point to that suggest that the country of Kuwait was not legitimate and that Iraq had some claim to that land. Did the Americans have any legal room at all for aquiring Hawaii, invading that land, taking the Hawaiian royality prisoner only for our own military and stratigic purposes and ideals of Manafest Destany?

(#2) Our government officials told him that we had no interest in getting involved in Iraq's affairs. What we had told him prior to the invasion of Kuwait can logically be interpreted as, "hey, do what you want, we won't stop you"

(#3) After the Iran/Iraq war, Saddam was being looked down upon by the Arab world and he was hungry to do something to regain respect among other leaders as well as among his population. It would be the equivalent of the Vietnam syndrome in the United States.

(#4) We had and have secret military bases in Saudi Arabia. Saddam was told about these bases. He did not know that they were American bases. He only knew that they were military bases, and those they were freaking huge, and that they were right on his border. Saddam felt that the Arab world was coming in on him. He had to do something to flex his muscles and show that he was still a player.

(#5) Turkey had done something similar with another country not too long before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Saddam did not have any way of knowing or imagining that Bush Senior would have taken the action that he did.

(#6) Despite all the bad stuff he had done to his own people, Saddam was looked upon by the United States as a good guy, not a bad guy (until the invasion of Kuwait). He had generally improved the well being of his people, provided some sanitation to his people, and improved the literacy rate. Among other Arab leaders, he was looked upon as one of the good ones.

[Bill_Thompson]

Hot-linking avatars in posts is not a good idea. It will make no sense when KOS changes it. Link to an image on CNN or something,

I will move it to my photobucket.

[Мастер]

I am sorry. Is reality too hard for you blind liberal cult-of-personality loving brainwashed pansies?

Now there is a good rank title!

[umop ap!sdn]

Now there is a good rank title!

KOS,

[Superluminal]

(1). IIRC, Kuwait and Iraq were drawn up after the British colonial era. Iraq considered Kuwait to be Province #19.

(2) U.S. ambassador to Iraq, April Gillipsie, told Saddam before the invasion that we would consider an invasion of Kuwait to be an internal affair. She has often been faulted for not consulting with Washington before giving Saddam that answer.

(4) As far as I know we have moved out of all the bases in Saudi Arabia.

[Lance]

What's (3)? A secret?

[Superluminal]

(3) Saddam believed he was the next Saladin.

[Мастер]

(3) Saddam believed he was the next Saladin.

Well, the great Salah ed-Din Yusef was from Tikrit, but he was a Kurd, whereas Saddam is an Arab. Also, Salah ed-Din kept winning his battles, whereas Saddam kept losing his. . .

[Heid the Ba]

(#1) I have been told that there is some legal gray area here by people who have served and been stationed in the Middle East. I have been told that there are some international laws on the books which one could point to that suggest that the country of Kuwait was not legitimate and that Iraq had some claim to that land.

Whatever historic claims may exist, at the time of the Iraqi invasion Kuwait was an independent state, with internationally recognised borders.

(#4) We had and have secret military bases in Saudi Arabia. Saddam was told about these bases. He did not know that they were American bases. He only knew that they were military bases, and those they were freaking huge, and that they were right on his border. Saddam felt that the Arab world was coming in on him. He had to do something to flex his muscles and show that he was still a player.

Spotting US bases in the UK is a straightforward process; I don't imagine it is too difficult where the majority of personnel aren't arabs and don't speak the language. And wear US uniforms.

(#5) Turkey had done something similar with another country not too long before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Saddam did not have any way of knowing or imagining that Bush Senior would have taken the action that he did.

Where did Turkey do this? From memory the only countries with land borders with Turkey are Greece (I would have heard), the Soviet Union which was still relatively intact (I doubt they would have stood for it) and Iraq, Iran and Syria, (again not the types to put up with it).

[Мастер]

(#5) Turkey had done something similar with another country not too long before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Saddam did not have any way of knowing or imagining that Bush Senior would have taken the action that he did.

Where did Turkey do this? From memory the only countries with land borders with Turkey are Greece (I would have heard), the Soviet Union which was still relatively intact (I doubt they would have stood for it) and Iraq, Iran and Syria, (again not the types to put up with it).

Perhaps it refers to Cyprus, although that was 16 years before. . .

Also going back a ways is the Syrian occupation of Lebanon, although Syria did not annex Lebanon. . .

[Heid the Ba]

I had forgotten Cyprus, it being so long ago. . .

The international community didn't just stand by it forced a ceasefire, though as yet no resolution to the problem.

[Мастер]

I had forgotten Cyprus, it being so long ago. . .

The international community didn't just stand by it forced a ceasefire, though as yet no resolution to the problem.

And more recently, it admitted the part that voted against reunification to the EU, and punished the part that voted for reunification by keeping it out of the EU :P

[Heid the Ba]

Being in the EU is a reward?

[Мастер]

Being in the EU is a reward?

Well, for them, yes - they both wanted in :P

[Heid the Ba]

It is good for us as well: while we subsidise Central Europe we have access to large numbers of mobile, trained workers; important when you have an ageing and declining population.

Not sure about the €uro though, I have no idea if it would be good for us. what is good is that everyone else is in it since it saves fannying about with a dozen different currencies.

And now a return to your scheduled thread . . .

[Мастер]

It is good for us as well: while we subsidise Central Europe we have access to large numbers of mobile, trained workers; important when you have an ageing and declining population.

Including plumbers :P Did you hear what the Polish tourism ministry did with him?

Not sure about the €uro though, I have no idea if it would be good for us. what is good is that everyone else is in it since it saves fannying about with a dozen different currencies.

And now a return to your scheduled thread . . .

A curious situation Scotland is in, it is theoretically devolving from a UK that is theoretically integrating into the EU :P

[Heid the Ba]

It is good for us as well: while we subsidise Central Europe we have access to large numbers of mobile, trained workers; important when you have an ageing and declining population.

Including plumbers :P Did you hear what the Polish tourism ministry did with him?

No I missed that.

There is a strange tension between the new immigrants from Poland, who have opened Polish delis etc. and are working as plumbers, sparkys, nurses etc. and Scotland's "old" Polish community who came here after the war (most Poles in the army and their families ended up in Scotland).

A curious situation Scotland is in, it is theoretically devolving from a UK that is theoretically integrating into the EU :P

The plan is to devolve from the UK as we integrate into Europe. Don't hold your breath . . .

[Мастер]

Including plumbers :P Did you hear what the Polish tourism ministry did with him?

No I missed that.

After the notorious French adverts, followed by the "no" vote, the Polish tourism ministry ran adverts in which the Polish plumber declares that he is staying in Poland. He then talks about all the fun things there are to do and see in Poland. I thought it was pretty clever :P