Bridging the Divide

[Dragon Star]

Actually, that's not that bad of an idea. Just fund the hell out of it to let other countries deal with it.

[pmcolt]

I like that idea myself. How do we keep corruption to a minimum and ensure that our funding goes entirely toward Iraqi reconstruction?

[Dragon Star]

Inspections and incentive.

"Look, you play by the rules and don't do anything wrong, and we will award you with ($X), But if you don't..."

[Enzo]

Our funding doesn't go entirely towards rebuilding Iraq NOW, so if we managed to put together an Arab coalition to oversee the job, why would it matter more then? Inefficiency, greed, waste and so on are a fact of life, especially in that part of the world. The question is could we "buy" success at all, even if the cost included a few extra vacation villas for a few gougers.

[Dragon Star]

so if we managed to put together an Arab coalition to oversee the job, why would it matter more then?

Because it no longer directly involves our military.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather entrap our money instead of ourselves. Let someone else be happy to do it.

Of course that would never fly, but it's an interesting scenario.

[Enzo]

I was referring to pmcolt's concern about who would oversee such funding to make sure it all went the right place. I figured since it didn't go where it ought to with US in charge, why would it matter if it still didn't get where it ought under someone else's watch. Assume an Arab coalition would be skimming just as Haliburton does now. WHat is the difference?

In other words I am all in favor of the idea and don't share the monetary concern.

[Dragon Star]

Ah, I see.

[pmcolt]

Corruption will exist in any rebuilding effort. If we outsource it to some Arab coalition, my concern would be that the money meant for Iraqi construction would instead be funneled toward, say, anti-Israeli groups, Iran's peaceful nuclear energy program, and other such problems that we don't have if we're in charge of the rebuilding ourselves.

I'm all in favor of the idea, as long as there is enough transparency and Coalition oversight to ensure that the money is going where it's supposed to be going.

[Dragon Star]

We would just have to make sure that the inspectors/investigators have military force.

It's just like the NPT inspectors now, they have no military force...so when they go to inspect a building the people there say..."Um, we sorry, floor's just painted, come again in few weeks and it be dry" and they just move out all their shit in the mean time. Inspectors come back and what do you know...nothings there.

[Heid the Ba]

We went in, destroyed Saddam's regime, and then terribly botched the rebuilding in the aftermath. The responsibility and the duty to reestablish a stable government still falls to us, regardless of how long it takes or how much hardship we have to bear to get it done.

I accept this, but why do you think western style democracy is the only stable form of government?

If we left, even at the request of a majority of innocent Iraqis,

Please define innocent.

If we included ALL the gulf states along with Syria and Turkey there
might be a way of putting together an all Arab force to take the
place of our troops.

Turks aren't Arab, and offhand I can't remember if all Syrians are either. Iraqis arguably aren't Arabs.

[Lance]

Turks aren't Arab, and offhand I can't remember if all Syrians are either. Iraqis arguably aren't Arabs.

Algeria | Bahrain | Comoros | Djibouti | Egypt | Iraq | Jordan | Kuwait | Lebanon | Libya | Mauritania | Morocco | Oman | Palestine | Qatar | Saudi | Somalia | Sudan | Syria | Tunisia | UAE | Yemen

[Heid the Ba]

Their definition is linquistic and designed to be as inclusive as possible;

"Arabs, name originally applied to the Semitic peoples of the Arabian peninsula; now used also for populations of countries whose primary language is Arabic, e.g., Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen."
My bold.

This is like describing everyone in Central and South America as "Spanish"; apart from Brazilians who are of course Portugese.

My definition is ethnic.

Either way, Turks aren't Arabs.

Edit: I appear to be in the minority here, most people think of Iraqis as Arabs or Kurds.

[pmcolt]

I accept this, but why do you think western style democracy is the only stable form of government?

It isn't, necessarily. Democracies can degenerate into an unstable form of mob rule without proper respect for limited government and individual rights. In contrast, Saddam's government was stable, but undemocratic. We're responsible for rebuilding Iraq in a stable form, and we choose a western style democracy to do so because we have long experience with it, we know it can work, and it is the only obvious option that reflects our own values that government should not rule through fear, and the majority should not persecute the minority.

Please define innocent.

Not engaged in combat operations or hostilities. In the context of my post, I meant Iraqi citizens who are not actively trying to destabilize Iraq as part of a militant or terrorist group. 'Civilian' might have worked, except terrorists aren't part of any recognized army.

[The Beer Slayer]

The only hope for Iraq holding together might be to install a military strongman, a Mussaraf-type character. "Saddam-lite" would be someone not as barbaric as Hussein but who can put a stop to this endless havoc. That would of course make a mockery of our talk about democracy.

Personally, I think we should partition the country, but that has its own risks. Might lead to a Yugoslav-style civil war, and of course the Turks would object to an independent Kurdistan, and the smaller states would be weak easily manipulated by their neighbors. On the other hand, Iraq at present is weak, and even a civil war with clearly defined factions might be preferable to the nihilistic mayhem we see now.

I hate to say it, but I think we're going to Iran's help to get this situation under control. And that will come with a price: namely, Iran the nuclear power and regional hegemon. Iran was once a US ally, maybe Iran as a US partner isn't so far-fetched.

[Мастер]

Their definition is linquistic and designed to be as inclusive as possible;

It is, but that's pretty much the way Arabs are defined. Defining it as having racial or ethnic origins in the Arabian peninsula excludes most of the people who call themselves Arabs. . .

This is like describing everyone in Central and South America as "Spanish"; apart from Brazilians who are of course Portugese.

It is - but that's the way the people in these countries usually describe themselves.

Either way, Turks aren't Arabs.

That is unambiguous. (I suppose there are a few Arabs in Turkey, just like there are everywhere, but not many.)

[Heid the Ba]

I accept this, but why do you think western style democracy is the only stable form of government?

It isn't, necessarily. Democracies can degenerate into an unstable form of mob rule without proper respect for limited government and individual rights. In contrast, Saddam's government was stable, but undemocratic. We're responsible for rebuilding Iraq in a stable form, and we choose a western style democracy to do so because we have long experience with it, we know it can work, and it is the only obvious option that reflects our own values that government should not rule through fear, and the majority should not persecute the minority.

I'd say we don't have that long an experience of western democracy. universal sufferage didn't come in the UK until 1928, I'm guessing the US isn't that different.

It is a very colonial attitude that you know what is best for Iraq, and that that is a US model.

Please define innocent.

Not engaged in combat operations or hostilities. In the context of my post, I meant Iraqi citizens who are not actively trying to destabilize Iraq as part of a militant or terrorist group. 'Civilian' might have worked, except terrorists aren't part of any recognized army.

So essentially "innocent" means not hostile to the Coalition? Someone who supports a nonviolent militant demonstration is not innocent?

KOS: as I said, I seem to be in the minority, possibly even a minority of one. :D

[Мастер]

KOS: as I said, I seem to be in the minority, possibly even a minority of one. :D

Going by memory, but I believe TE Lawrence referred to the Arabs as a "manufactured people" :P

[Мастер]

universal sufferage didn't come in the UK until 1928, I'm guessing the US isn't that different.

1920 for women in the US. Legally, blacks since the 1860s, but the theory and the practice were somewhat different for a long time (and some would argue unto the present day). . .

[Heid the Ba]

Then I'm in good company in my minority of two.

[Мастер]

Then I'm in good company in my minority of two.

You refer to TE? He still concludes that "speaks Arabic" == "Arab" :P