And we get to pay . . .

[Heid the Ba]

An old man who believes in discrimination, voodoo and has an imaginary friend is invited to visit the UK and it will cost the UK taxpayer £20 million or so.

Apparently there are no plans to ask his kiddie-fiddler friendly organisation to pay for any of it,

[Lonewulf]

Uh, "voodoo"? That's a new one.

I've heard him called Pope Nazi, though.

[Blue Monster 65]

And many of your countrymen will willing do so, too, Heid. A real shame this.

Imagine what that fucker could accomplish if he'd dump the pretend friend crap and put their billions to work throughout the world on education instead of indoctrination.

[Lonewulf]

Wait. The Catholic Church doesn't fund education? That's actually a new one on me. Here I thought there were plenty of Catholic schools, mostly funded by the Church.

They also offer scholarships. http://oedb.org/scholarship/catholic

In fact, the Catholic Church is more advanced than a lot of evangelist groups, who refuse to accept things like evolution (which the Catholic Church does).

[Мастер]

I believe something like 25% of the world's AIDS sufferers are under the care of the Catholic church. I think we might also have a regular member here who is in the employ of some Catholic medical facility.

[Arneb]

I seem to remember there is one.

Pope Naz is a gross misnomer. Yes, he was in the Hitler Youth, as any 14 yo at the time who wasn't deemed "unworthy" by TBTB was, and yes, he served, if briefly, in the German Wehrmacht. He got off relatively lightly, possibly because of his stated intention to become a Catholic priest;, but literally hundreds of thousands of his generation were cannon-foddered into the Nazi war machine. In the final year of WW II, the Nazis drafted all birth years up to and including the year 1929 into the Wehrmacht. Born April 1927, Joseph Ratzinger had just turned 18 when the war ended.

Nothing in his life, teaching, scholarship and theology to me indicates any closeness, however subtle, to any fascist ideas. Calling him Pope Nazi is stuff for, of and by The Sun and their ilk.

[Lonewulf]

Gillianren does it too. She also says that fourteen-year-olds bound for the seminary were not required to be Hitler Youth, so to say "he had to" is nonsense.

But she thinks that electing a pope that went to a Hitler Youth program after a Pope that had nearly gone to Auschwitz was not the best PR decision ever made.

Personally, I'm neutral either way.

[Мастер]

The Wikipedia article states:

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939, but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.

The quotation has two citations, but both would appear to be secondary sources.

[Blue Monster 65]

Wait. The Catholic Church doesn't fund education? That's actually a new one on me. Here I thought there were plenty of Catholic schools, mostly funded by the Church.

They also offer scholarships. http://oedb.org/scholarship/catholic

In fact, the Catholic Church is more advanced than a lot of evangelist groups, who refuse to accept things like evolution (which the Catholic Church does).

Education wherein the invisible man in the sky trumps all science and evolution is granted by him.

Yes, they may be "more enlightened" than many evangelical groups, but delusional is still delusional.

[Lonewulf]

Education wherein the invisible man in the sky trumps all science

No. Falsch. This just shows you are ignorant as to Catholic education and acceptance of science.

and evolution is granted by him.

If you go back far enough -- and accept the Big Bang -- who's to say they're wrong?

Yes, they may be "more enlightened" than many evangelical groups, but delusional is still delusional.

So this justifies you to post up false information, as well as completely ignoring what the Church has done and is doing?

Honestly, I'd expect better from you.

[Lonewulf]

The Wikipedia article states:

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939, but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings.

The quotation has two citations, but both would appear to be secondary sources.

Eh, I'll accept it, until I see other evidence for otherwise. It's not a big point for me, really.

[Blue Monster 65]

Good for you!

By the way, I have a degree from a Catholic college (Aquinas in Grand Rapids, MI).

I have read Catholic statements as to their acceptance of evolution and how it pertains to the Christian God and have discussed said topic ad nauseum with priests who were philosophy profs at said school.

I have re-read my previous statements and am wondering if you could please tell me my false information and fallacious arguments I would appreciate it.

[Lonewulf]

"Trumps all science". Wrong.

Let's start with that, shall we?

What exactly is the Church doing with an observatory? Gazing into altar boy's windows?

That's not even getting into the fact that you still ignore the scholarships and schools that they do fund -- the same schools and scholarships that are part of "using their billions" like you claimed they needed to do. It seems that you're backpedaling quite a bit here.

Oh, and I went to a private Catholic high school. While I didn't like it there, I didn't see anything lacking in education. There were arts, mathematics, philosophy, and *gasp!* science and health courses. I thought they ignored science?

I think my anecdotes trump yours.

[Blue Monster 65]

Please re-read my posts - I never said they ignored science.

I did say that their "God trumps all" and "evolution is granted by him." This I come by by the fact that the bottom line of the Catholic faith is that God is the Alpha and the Omega - all and everything relates back to him and how he relates to his creation (simplifying here).

If this is NOT true, then why profess a belief in God?

I'll give you the fact that they do have schools and scholarships - I should have been more specific in my original post that instead of pushing a Christian-based world outlook (did you not go to services as part of your schooling?), I would prefer a reality-based education, not one based on an imaginary being.

Of course, if you believe in that being, then my assertions are wrong and you would surely believe that I am the one who is delusional.

What is the church doing with an observatory? I imagine the same as many other people are doing: looking into the cosmos. What do they see there? The same stars, etc. everyone else does. How they interpret that information is down to them, but you can be assured said stars, etc. are creations of their God, regardless of how they actually came into being.

As for the "altar boy's window" comment - we both know that's uncalled for. While I may not agree with their faith, I know far too many people for whom that whole scandal is an affront to their dignity and a shame upon their profession.

[Lonewulf]

Please re-read my posts - I never said they ignored science.

No, you just suggested that their benefits to education should be ignored because their "Education wherein the invisible man in the sky trumps all science"

I'm perfectly capable of reading.

Also, again, it's wrong. They do accept science. Perhaps you should have used a better word than "trumps". Write carefully, and perhaps I won't "misread" your comments.

I did say that their "God trumps all" and "evolution is granted by him." This I come by by the fact that the bottom line of the Catholic faith is that God is the Alpha and the Omega - all and everything relates back to him and how he relates to his creation (simplifying here).

If this is NOT true, then why profess a belief in God?

Did I deny this?

Like I said, if they accept Big Bang and evolution, then what does it matter? Seriously.

I'll give you the fact that they do have schools and scholarships - I should have been more specific in my original post that instead of pushing a Christian-based world outlook (did you not go to services as part of your schooling?), I would prefer a reality-based education, not one based on an imaginary being.

I did go to services as part of my schooling. I don't consider this a huge harm. I prefer good secular schools, but you're the one using terms like "fucker", and making large general insults towards the Catholic Church.

And 99% of their education is reality-based. You're the one that's focusing on the 1% as if it negates the rest.

Of course, if you believe in that being, then my assertions are wrong and you would surely believe that I am the one who is delusional.

Not necessarily true.

I'm an atheist, but I don't see religious people as "delusional". I think that they're more than likely wrong, yes, but when they reach a certain point and can accept things such as scientific understandings, I'm perfectly fine with it.

So what if they believe in evolution in a religious context? As long as they are not rejecting data out of hand, it makes sense enough.

What is the church doing with an observatory? I imagine the same as many other people are doing: looking into the cosmos. What do they see there? The same stars, etc. everyone else does. How they interpret that information is down to them, but you can be assured said stars, etc. are creations of their God, regardless of how they actually came into being.

So what? An archaeologist could look at the ground and see the Earth as part of God's creation, but that doesn't keep him from doing his job -- or understanding the science.

As for the "altar boy's window" comment - we both know that's uncalled for.

That was me being snarky. Don't read anything more into it than my having a wry sense of humor.

While I may not agree with their faith, I know far too many people for whom that whole scandal is an affront to their dignity and a shame upon their profession.

Aside from the "fucker", of course.





Now I wonder if you're capable of reading. You criticize me for the "altar boy" comment, but here's Heid the Ba:

Apparently there are no plans to ask his kiddie-fiddler friendly organisation to pay for any of it,

Apparently, it's when I disagree with you that it's objectionable. How convenient.

[Lonewulf]

Just to add: It costs money to protect ANY major world leader, and whether or not you agree with his organization, the Pope is a world leader.

[Enzo]

Heid doesn't need me to speak for him, but seems to me when the Catholic church has a long history of sexual abuse of minors on the part of their priests and selects to hide the fact, move the offending priests to other parishes rather than turn them in to the authorities or provide any real effort to eliminate the behaviors, that makes them seem pretty kid-fiddler friendly to me. People now are less afraid to speak up, and the church has been forced to acknowledge this. Whereas they formerly would have packed our local priest off to Albuquerque, fully aware of his proclivities, yet not warning the locals out there, the current climate is making them do something other than sweep it under the rug. This is not one or two renegade priests, this is hundreds of them.

[Heid the Ba]

Voodoo was shorthand for miracles, trans-substantiation etc.

Yes, we have to pay to protect any world leader, but other world leaders represent trade partners etc. who benefit the whole country; and other world leaders do not try to persuade me to change my lifestyle to marginalise the GLBT community, or to abandon condoms either for contraception or health reasons. If the catholic church would approve condom use perhaps there would be fewer AIDS sufferers requiring their care.

Edit to add: Here is a news article about the Pope's attempt to exempt the catholic church from equality legislation.

[Мастер]

If the catholic church would approve condom use perhaps there would be fewer AIDS sufferers requiring their care.

Very likely true, I just tend to take a somewhat nuanced view on the merits of such organizations. On the one hand, we have rather nasty things like attempts to hush up sex abuse scandals. And I don't buy into the religion either. But, on the other hand, religious organizations do provide aid to some of the most dismally poor and desperate people on earth. Many members of the latte classes, myself included, can't point to anything like that on our CVs.

But, is it surprising that the UK would sponsor this trip? Doesn't it have its own state-sponsored voodoo?

[Мастер]

And many of your countrymen will willing do so, too, Heid. A real shame this.

Imagine what that fucker could accomplish if he'd dump the pretend friend crap and put their billions to work throughout the world on education instead of indoctrination.

I don't think he'd have the billions if he dumped the pretend friend crap . . .

[Lonewulf]

Heid doesn't need me to speak for him, but seems to me when the Catholic church has a long history of sexual abuse of minors on the part of their priests and selects to hide the fact, move the offending priests to other parishes rather than turn them in to the authorities or provide any real effort to eliminate the behaviors, that makes them seem pretty kid-fiddler friendly to me. People now are less afraid to speak up, and the church has been forced to acknowledge this. Whereas they formerly would have packed our local priest off to Albuquerque, fully aware of his proclivities, yet not warning the locals out there, the current climate is making them do something other than sweep it under the rug. This is not one or two renegade priests, this is hundreds of them.

As for the bolded, from what I've read, there's estimated to be over 400,000 priests worldwide, as stated in this article. But okay.

I think it's more complicated than most people try to make it out to be, not half as black and white, and in fact is an issue that is being handled in a positive way now. I do notice a tendency for people to somehow conveniently not notice when an organization changes for the better when it satiates their hate.

Also, I just want to add? I never actually criticized what Heid the Ba said. I brought it up because of the obvious hypocrisy of Blue Monster 65

Voodoo was shorthand for miracles, trans-substantiation etc.

Uhm, okay.

When I feel like bashing Buddhism, I'll call it Shintoism. When I feel like bashing Shintoism, I'll call it Gnosticism. I sound more clever that way, apparently. ;)

Yes, we have to pay to protect any world leader, but other world leaders represent trade partners etc. who benefit the whole country;

Ah, I see. So it's trade that decides it. Okay.

and other world leaders do not try to persuade me to change my lifestyle to marginalise the GLBT community

Yes, that's something worth criticizing.

or to abandon condoms either for contraception or health reasons.

Also worth criticizing.

However, do I really need to get into the weird things other world leaders believe or try to push, in their home country and possibly abroad?

If the catholic church would approve condom use perhaps there would be fewer AIDS sufferers requiring their care.

Undoubtedly true.

[Heid the Ba]

On another forum this topic is being discussed and someone linked to content advisory labelsto attach to hotel room bibles.

[Enzo]

there's estimated to be over 400,000 priests worldwide

I said the pedophilic segment was not one or two renegade priests, but instead hundreds of them. I certainly hope all 400,000 of them are not pedophiles.

[Lonewulf]

there's estimated to be over 400,000 priests worldwide

I said the pedophilic segment was not one or two renegade priests, but instead hundreds of them. I certainly hope all 400,000 of them are not pedophiles.

I know what you said. I made the obvious comparison of "hundreds of priests" (a vague figure) vs. 400,000.

But nevermind, carry on.

[Lonewulf]

On another forum this topic is being discussed and someone linked to content advisory labelsto attach to hotel room bibles.

Cute.

"Bestiality"? Cite, please?