USA! USA! USA!

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USA! USA! USA!

Postby Enzo » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:13 am

Hooray for our team, we are so civilized.

We just executed a woman in Virginia, Teresa Lewis.

SHe hired a couple of guys to kill her husband and stepson so she could collect $250,000 insurance. They did, she didn't. SHe was convicted and sentenced to death. Virginia likes to kill them all almost as much as Texas.

Now she just arranged it, the guys who actually did it got life in prison.

The law prevents people with an IQ of 70 or below from being executed. But Lewis had an IQ of 72, so despite over 7300 appeals to the governor, the sentence was carried out.


And we have the gall to preach morality to the rest of the world.
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Re: USA! USA! USA!

Postby Мастер » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:30 am

I don't have much information about this particular case, and don' t have a whole lot to say about it. But what I am pretty confident of is:

Enzo wrote:And we have the gall to preach morality to the rest of the world.


The rest of the world isn't listening.
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Postby Arneb » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:15 pm

As part of ROW, I can confirm this.
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Postby Мастер » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:10 pm

Arneb wrote:As part of ROW, I can confirm this.


I guess I can start using this acronym now. Until recently, I hadn't been ROW since I was two years old :P
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Postby Enzo » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:46 am

Oh yeah? Well I hold the ROW responsible for the RoHS, which is negatively impacting our ROI.


(Lead-free solder, my ass...)
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Postby KLA2 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:07 pm

I disagree with you here, Enzo. She was evil, she needed to be destroyed. This was no "burning bed" case (as far as I know) and she arranged the murders of both her husband and son for love or money. This was not a crime of passion in the moment or self defence - it was calculated, cold blooded murder. (I would have executed the two guys who committed it, as well.) :evil:

IQ is a slippery concept at best. She clearly knew what she was doing, and how wrong it was.

I support capital punishment (why can't we just call it "killing people" :roll: when the crime is vile enough and there is virtual certainty of who committed it. (Not going to get into detailed definitions, or I will be typing for a week.)

Also, consider which is crueler: a quick and merciful death, or life in the hell hole of a prison? What does it cost the taxpayers to keep one person in prison for a year? I think I read it is upwards of $100,000. Hell, if you paid most of them half of that, they would never have needed to commit their crimes in the first place.

Not to mention the cost to society when these ... citizens ... are released 5, 10, 15, 20 years later, bitter, angry, seeking revenge, unable to get good fulfilling jobs as accountants and doctors, and trained in prison to be far more successful criminals.

The state of Virginia did the right thing.
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Postby Halcyon Dayz, FCD » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:12 pm

KLA2 wrote:She was evil, she needed to be destroyed.

Once you're there, you're already pretty far out on the slippery slope.
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Postby Мастер » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:03 am

OK, so part of the ROW is listening :P
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Postby Arneb » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:00 pm

I'll do some tree-hugging myself hee and side with Enzo and Halcyon. Capital punishment is beneath any civilized nation, but to execute an imbecile is adding insult to injury.
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Postby KLA2 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:44 pm

Arneb wrote:I'll do some tree-hugging myself hee and side with Enzo and Halcyon. Capital punishment is beneath any civilized nation, but to execute an imbecile is adding insult to injury.


Borderline deficiency, actually. She apparently was a 72.

IQ Range Classification
70-80 Borderline deficiency
50-69 Moron
20-49 Imbecile
below 20 Idiot

http://www.health2009.com/medicine/30417-1.html

As I said, testing IQ is a slippery concept at best. Faking low is undoubtedly easier than faking high. Not accusing, just saying.
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Postby Arneb » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:02 pm

OK, let's say she was "er weng schlicht" (a bit simple), as we say in Franconia. My use of the terminology was less circumspect than you would expect from a professional, so, sorry.

I stand by my judgement that executing this particular person makes the US's handling of the death penalty more, not less, odious.
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Postby KLA2 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:04 pm

Arneb wrote:OK, let's say she was "er weng schlicht" (a bit simple), as we say in Franconia. My use of the terminology was less circumspect than you would expect from a professional, so, sorry.


No need for apology. I knew what you meant, but the disitinction here does matter.

Arneb wrote:I stand by my judgement that executing this particular person makes the US's handling of the death penalty more, not less, odious.


I agree, except, I still think that the penalty was appropriate, not odious, for the reasons I stated previously.

ETA: It is always odious to kill another person, and many think, any living creature. Sometimes it is appropriate or necessary, however. :(

Come on, folks, get into this discussion. Call me an asshole, present a brilliant rebuttal. You may change my mind. Agree with me; you may make me feel good. :wink:

Don't leave me here alone with the old hippie, liberal doctor and the tree-hugging FCD! :lol:

{Arneb, HD, much appreciate your responses. Enzo? Everyone else? :shock: }
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Postby tubeswell » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:42 pm

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. (Hammurabi I believe - an old sentiment to be sure) - but how should it be considered today?

Violence is violence. Even if she was sane (which I doubt), it may've been more compassionate to give her a prison cell for life and a cynanide pill, so she could choose to unburden the taxpayers at any time.
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Postby KLA2 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:14 am

NO, Tubes, I am NOT advocating killing for revenge, or punishment, or retribution, or as a deterrent, which is what that quotation is all about.

If a dog becomes rabid, a good dog, a gentle pet, you are obliged to shoot it before it bites (more) members of the community, and out of pity. It would be worse to lock it in a cage and wait for it to die.

As for the cynanide pill scenerio, fantasy, and if used, probably would result in a crueler death than a state execution. (Let's hope.) :roll:

Or, she might shove it up the nose of a guard or inmate. :evil:

ETA: Sorry, Tubes, on re-reading it seems you are not advocating that eye-for-an-eye justice system, just mentioning it as a concept of the past.

Any offence to you is regretted. :oops:
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Postby Superluminal » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:50 am

I have to side with Kla on this. In the US the death penalty is reserved for the most heinous crimes. I don't know the particulars in this case, but I agree the ones who actually carried out the crime should have been sitting there beside her.

How does keeping a vicious killer alive, where he may con his way past a parole board, escape or kill guards or other inmates, make us civilized?
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Postby Мастер » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:13 am

KLA2 wrote:She was evil, she needed to be destroyed.


Hey! I'm evil!

:evil:
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Postby Blue Monster 65 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:38 am

Well, DUH!
Is there such a thing?
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Postby wring » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:54 pm

I'm against the death penalty. It's supposed to be reserved for the most heinious crimes, but seems to be simply reserved for those crimes where the defendent will be easily manipulated - low IQ, poor etc. I don't have an ethical problem w/more serious punishment for the person who hires a crime to be done, though. I do have additional problems executing persons w/low IQ's, documented significant mental health issues, and juveniles. All of which we do (along w/Iran, Syria and a handful of other enlightened folks).


There was a case locally where a community college prof was murdered rather grisely. Raped as well. They found a man who was borderline IQ who was mainly living (homeless) at the CC, kept him questioned for hours and hours, asking him things like "If you had done how would you have done ..." He answered them, they called it a confession. Physical evidence (really bloody crime scene) consisted of on single fiber they found at the scene that was "microscopitcly similar" to one of his outer clothing.

He was convicted and sentenced to life (we don't have the death penalty, and if we had, I'd have bet they'd have sentenced him to death).

Problem was: A. The cops had found the prof's driver's license on the street nearby w/a known and convicted rapists' fingerprint on it.
B. DNA under prof's fingernails did not match the guy they convicted. They never tested it to the convicted rapists (yes, they had his DNA on file).
C. There was a fucking video tape of the guy they convicted sitting in a public area of the campus pretty much at teh time of the murder. And yes, the cops and prosecutors had that, too. They claimed they disclosed the existence of the tape to the defense just as they were calling the tape guy as a witness. The defense attorney claimed he never was told. Whatever. It was exculpetory evidence and the charges should have been dropped right then.

Guy was released from prison after second guy was picked up for additional murders. PRosecutor refused to expunge the record, saying he wasn't convinced the guy had 'nothing to do w/it'. Courts overrulled him. The convicted but innocent guy has gotten a settlement from the state. His (new) attorneys have set it up so that folks can't take advantage of him.
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Postby Arneb » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:56 pm

No acrid rebuttals from me. You see, a true tree-hugger hugs everyone who disagrees wih him, too.

I am against the death penalty on principle (or is that "out of principle"?), and that needed saying. The particulars of any specific case are of no interest to that opinion; however, the case of a rather daft person who had the idea getting killed while the two guys who actually committed the murder are on free board and lodge for life (or whatever the timespan, in case they have been granted the possibility of parole) highlights the grotesque elements of it. "Hey, weren't we good blaming it on the simpleton? Gimme five..."
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Postby Arneb » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:01 pm

wring wrote:There was a case locally where...


And let me add that the death penalty in the hands of a very faulty justice system like that in the US is a very, very loose cannon.

It doesn't modify my being against the death penalty. It sure reinforces my notion that the US is performing terribly under par culturally in that particular area.
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Postby wring » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:44 pm

Exactly, Arneb though I'd suggest that pretty much any system administered by humans would be significantly flawed. Yes, DNA is a wonderful thing, but are administered by flawed humans. I'd recommend the book the INnocence Project which outlines a wide variety of cases where 'science' was used to convict the innocent. There's been entire labs in Texas and I think LA maybe? that have been subject to investigation over their examination and reporting on evidence. And there's any number of studies and cases that show that confessions and eye witness testimony aren't as clear cut as one might want to think.

WRT costs per year of incarceration - the average in MI is about 28 grand, the 100 grand per year is, I believe the costs for incarceration on a death row, where the costs are exponentially higher (higher security etc.).
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Postby tubeswell » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:30 pm

wring wrote: The convicted but innocent guy has gotten a settlement from the state.


Nice ending

wring wrote: His (new) attorneys have set it up so that folks can't take advantage of him.


And they all lived happily ever after. Wonder how much those attorney's charged him for that?
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Postby wring » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:43 pm

No amount of money can actually repay the guy for what he went through. I know the prison he was in. He was actually locked up (for a time) with the real killer. He was the type of guy who'd get hurt inside a prison. And the prosecution had ample reason to know he was innocent, and failed to look at really simple evidence to get the real guy (I know DNA doesn't work like TV, and fingerprint matches take more than a few seconds, but they had the fingerprint of the real killer the entire time he was locked up awaiting trial and they didn't bother running it.)

And the attorneys involved, I'm sure got paid - but they made sure their client was protected and set for life. They made a specific statement to the press to ward off those who would try and get money out of him. they went above and beyond. I have no problem w/them being compensated for that as well.

Really, do you think the attorneys for him should have done all that for free? The state, with all it's resources, went above and beyond to fuck with this guy (to the extent that after it'd been proven that he was innocent, they still wanted the conviction on his record), they fired ONE GUY over the deal. There were plenty of folks complicent in this miscarriage of justice.
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Postby tubeswell » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:21 pm

Nah of course they shouldn't've done it for free. They're attorneys after all, and probably clever to boot. I just hope they didn't charge him too much, just in case he can't add (or subtract or...)
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Postby wring » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:26 pm

I have no idea what their piece of it was. The statement that was made was that he was 'set for life' (as in he won't have to work to survive, etc), and that he was protected. He was probably eligible for SSI payments as well due to his mental impairment, don't know if he'd ever collected that.

I'm still really peeved at the prosecution. IMHO, it's cases like this that undermines the legal system far more than a guilty person going free.
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