Bin Laden Dead

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Bin Laden Dead

Postby Blue Monster 65 » Mon May 02, 2011 3:16 am

Got the call - should be a firestorm of info coming out soon.

Wow.
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Postby Мастер » Mon May 02, 2011 4:13 am

Shit. Now I'll never get the $10 he owes me.
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Postby St. Jimmy » Mon May 02, 2011 4:36 am

I gotta hurry up and get some sleep, I have a 50 minute drive to work in 8 hours and need some sleep before then, so I'm just gonna post my opinion from facebook and get back to a more well spoken opinion later tomorrow.

Bin Ladin was killed, so what? It doesn't mean Al-Qaeda has been eliminated. They are still very existent. Also, the US announcing so very quickly and in a patriotic in-your-face style that our country is responsible, should be a frightening thing, not a cause for mass celebration. I hope the CIA and all other intelligence agencies have their shit together, and I'm damn glad I don't live somewhere important.
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Postby Мастер » Mon May 02, 2011 4:40 am

St. Jimmy wrote:and I'm damn glad I don't live somewhere important.


Be glad you don't live in a big expensive house with no phone or internet service!
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Postby Blue Monster 65 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:44 am

Sorry for your loss, Mactep!

Not much of a victory in the long run, but it's a bit of closure in history. Tomorrow will be more of the same, but tonight one boogieman is gone.

I don't know that I would worry so much about the big places as some small, out-of-the-way place to make a splash next. Not to make you nervous, but SA is always a good thing.

The conspiracy/end times theories are already popping up. Sad world we live in.
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Postby tubeswell » Mon May 02, 2011 10:09 am

Mactep wrote:Shit. Now I'll never get the $10 he owes me.


Why not get that other sidekick fella to pay up? Whatshisname? (Ayman al-Zawahiri) - or better still - get him to make some pro bono in-kind payment (like slitting his own throat)
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Postby KLA2 » Tue May 03, 2011 1:05 am

St. Jimmy wrote:I gotta hurry up and get some sleep, I have a 50 minute drive to work in 8 hours and need some sleep before then, so I'm just gonna post my opinion from facebook and get back to a more well spoken opinion later tomorrow.

Bin Ladin was killed, so what? It doesn't mean Al-Qaeda has been eliminated. They are still very existent. Also, the US announcing so very quickly and in a patriotic in-your-face style that our country is responsible, should be a frightening thing, not a cause for mass celebration. I hope the CIA and all other intelligence agencies have their shit together, and I'm damn glad I don't live somewhere important.


WTF??? That is like saying, in the 1940’s, maybe if we ignore the Nazi’s and leave them alone, they will never bother us. Like saying the same thing about the Mafia in the 1960’s.

It does not work that way. Give your head a shake.

The fanatic loonies hate us and will do anything they can to destroy us. The vast majority of rational Muslims are normal humans who comprehend Bin Laden was a mass murderer and deserved death.

This will not change the thinking of either group.

Sadly, yes, this may provide a further excuse by a few on the fringe to murder and maim. Does that mean we should bow before all terrorists and plead for mercy?

We will never get it.

I say “we” because, lest some forget, Canadians are still fighting, and dieing, in Afghanistan, making us targets as well.

Rejoice that he is now "has bin-Laden."
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Postby Superluminal » Tue May 03, 2011 4:24 am

The Donald wants to see his death certificate.
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Postby Arneb » Tue May 03, 2011 4:47 pm

I liked the Vatican reaction. "Osama Bin Laden - as everyone knows - has had the gravest responsibility for spreading hatred and division among people, causing the deaths of countless people, and exploiting religion for this purpose.

Faced with the death of a man, a Christian never rejoices [...]."

The SEALs who went in for this operation deserve endless praise for their skill and courage. But I would have preferred Usama Bin Ladin in an orange jumper, with all the medical treatments necessary, well-fed, strong, manicured, silvery beard flowing thick from his chin, scented in rosewater, sitting beside a fire-spouting fat cat lawyer - in front of a New York jury.

After that, life imprisonment together with other killers. I'd even have suspended my on-principle opposition to capital punishment for him.

But it would have been better than this mangled body with a hole in its head, dropped into the sea, ideal stuff for a martyr legend.
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Postby Мастер » Tue May 03, 2011 5:45 pm

Arneb wrote:The SEALs who went in for this operation deserve endless praise for their skill and courage. But I would have preferred Usama Bin Ladin in an orange jumper, with all the medical treatments necessary, well-fed, strong, manicured, silvery beard flowing thick from his chin, scented in rosewater, sitting beside a fire-spouting fat cat lawyer - in front of a New York jury.


Not clear if he was offered the same deal (the opportunity to be taken alive) as Saddam Hussein, or if he would have taken it if it had. The reports I'm hearing are that it was guns blazing the whole time, so the only way to have taken him alive would have been to starve him out (and maybe not even then). And that would have been slightly problematic in an operation taking place in Pakistan, apparently without the knowledge or permission of the Pakistani government. As an alternative, they could have asked the Pakistan government to go and pick him up, and the target of the operation then might or might not have received advanced word of said picking up. In any event, it does seem the reports we are getting are all from one particular party in the operation, so there is the possibility that they are very very slightly less than 100% accurate.

Arneb wrote:After that, life imprisonment together with other killers.


Well, the new tower is going up, with the name Freedom Tower, and the symbolically important height of 1,776 feet. Not sure if it will have a giant rotating red white and blue beacon at the top, or whether the lift music will alternate between The Star Spangled Banner and God Bless America. So perhaps he could have gotten a job in it as a restroom attendant through the prison work-release programme. But one suspects that if a New York jury were sufficiently empowered, the result would have been prompt execution (maybe torture first), and burial directly beneath a row of portable toilets just outside the entrance.

But I do wonder about something. If he were captured alive, and brought before a trial with somewhat more objective standards than those of the Moscow trials of the 1930s, what evidence did they actually have on him? Is there really anything that would have stood up to the standards of a criminal trial? I don't really know. It wouldn't have looked so good for the Americans if he were acquitted, and then promptly sued the US government for damages. Maybe that's why, wishing to spare the Americans this potential embarrassment, he went down in a blaze of glory.

Arneb wrote:I'd even have suspended my on-principle opposition to capital punishment for him.


Ah, so you just have a higher threshold than some others :P

Funny how the US, which has capital punishment in a few dozen states, I think, and also for some federal crimes, outlawed capital punishment when they were running Iraq. I still remember some fellow on the news talking about Saddam Hussein, pointing out that upon regaining sovereignty, one of the first things the Iraqis did was reinstate capital punishment. He ended with, "Guess who it's for?" :)

Arneb wrote:But it would have been better than this mangled body with a hole in its head, dropped into the sea, ideal stuff for a martyr legend.


It may have been, although I don't know if it was feasible. Some of the other tactics buzzing on the news wire (and in the early frenzy, it's not clear how accurate some of these reports are) is that they considered missile or drone attacks, but these would have had the drawback that a) they wouldn't get confirmation that the person they were after was actually there, b) there was too much risk of too many civilian casualties, and c) any potential intelligence to be had inside the compound would have been inaccessible, and very likely destroyed. It wouldn't have surprised me they had this one on back up, though, in case the primary mission force were not successful. (Recall that thirty years ago, a US long-distance helicopter covert operation in Iran didn't go so well.)
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Postby MM_Dandy » Tue May 03, 2011 11:08 pm

The disposal at sea was explained in part as an attempt to keep his place of burial from possibly becoming a shrine.

I won't speculate on what should or shouldn't have happened during the raid.
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Postby KLA2 » Wed May 04, 2011 2:26 am

Superluminal wrote:The Donald wants to see his death certificate.


Nothing but the long form will do.
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Postby Superluminal » Wed May 04, 2011 2:54 am

With all the controversy over his burial at sea. We should have stuffed his body with explosives, then released it to who ever wanted it, then detinated it at the funeral. Could have gotten a lot more terrorist then.
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Postby KLA2 » Wed May 04, 2011 2:58 am

Come on, Arneb. Had he been taken alive, put on trial, jailed, ... fanatical followers would be kidnapping innocents and torturing/murdering/mailing body parts demanding OBL's release. That gets awkward.

Besides, maybe he really was captured, and a kindly, gentle team of CIA agents are saying, "give us some information, please, pretty please with a cherry on top?" I would like to think so.

We know he would not be hurt, because President Bush assured the world that the USA does not torture.

As for the disposition of the body, someone said it should be ground up, fed to rats, the rats fed to inebriated pigs, the pigs then served to residents of Guantanamo Bay.

I do not agree.

Rats deserve better.
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Postby Heid the Ba » Wed May 04, 2011 7:47 am

Mactep wrote:But I do wonder about something. If he were captured alive, and brought before a trial with somewhat more objective standards than those of the Moscow trials of the 1930s, what evidence did they actually have on him? Is there really anything that would have stood up to the standards of a criminal trial? I don't really know. It wouldn't have looked so good for the Americans if he were acquitted, and then promptly sued the US government for damages. Maybe that's why, wishing to spare the Americans this potential embarrassment, he went down in a blaze of glory.

Depending on the jurisdiction they might have enough for inciting hatred or conspiracy but I haven't heard of any evidence that would stand up in court. His claims and videos (however true) would not necessarily be enough to convict him.

Edit2 Even asking this question would get you banned at BAUT.
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Postby Heid the Ba » Wed May 04, 2011 7:49 am

Superluminal wrote:With all the controversy over his burial at sea. We should have stuffed his body with explosives, then released it to who ever wanted it, then detinated it at the funeral. Could have gotten a lot more terrorist then.

How does this differ morally from carbombing a marketpalce or flying a plane into a tower? You would simply be killing random people.

KLA2 wrote:As for the disposition of the body, someone said it should be ground up, fed to rats, the rats fed to inebriated pigs, the pigs then served to residents of Guantanamo Bay.


The residents of Guantanamo Bay are suspects, they haven't been convicted of anything, or even given the hope of a trial. They are still innocent in the eyes of the law.

Come on people, we're better than this.
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Postby Мастер » Wed May 04, 2011 8:57 am

Heid the Ba' wrote:Depending on the jurisdiction they might have enough for inciting hatred or conspiracy but I haven't heard of any evidence that would stand up in court. His claims and videos (however true) would not necessarily be enough to convict him.


Say, I just thought of something. They could have held him on US soil, then waited for him to fail to file his income tax return.
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Postby Heid the Ba » Wed May 04, 2011 9:12 am

Of course! He'd be liable for income earned anywhere in the world so get him on tax evasion, it worked with Al Capone.

It wouldn't work here as he probably has no income in the UK.

/Misses the point of the joke. :oops:
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Postby tubeswell » Wed May 04, 2011 5:06 pm

the joke being...

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Postby Arneb » Wed May 04, 2011 8:09 pm

KLA2 wrote:Come on, Arneb.

?
Come where? Or is this simply to say that you can't take me seriously? In that case, you can stop reading.

KLA2 wrote:Had he been taken alive, put on trial, jailed, ... fanatical followers would be kidnapping innocents and torturing/murdering/mailing body parts demanding OBL's release.

OK, so you can't take hostages to demand the release of someone who is already dead. No argument there. But so what? Islamist terrorists don't generelly take hostages in order to have their demands fulfilled. They make impossible-to-fulfil demands in order to have a pretext for slashing their hostages' throats as publicly as possible (Daniel Pearl, anyone?). And, will terrorists hell-bent on destroying Western civilisation act any more friendly and likeably because a navy SEAL commando killed OBL instead of taking him prisoner? Will they be any less likely to butcher innocent people because OBL was shot in the head while in bed with his wife, unarmed - instead of being handcuffed, hooded, and rushed off in a helicopter? No, Islamist terrorism will do anything, and as cruelly as possible. A living and convicted OBL wouldn't change that at all.

You see, I wouldn't EVER criticise the actions of the team that went in there. Because I don't know what happend there, and I don't know what their orders were. I merely point out that my personal preference would have been taking OBL alive: He, convicted as criminal, in spite of being given all the rights criminal suspects enjoy in the Free World, and in spite of being given good medical treatment, food and spiritual counsel, would have shown how strong the Free World and its leading nation, the US, really are (Mactep's interjection about the quality of the actual evidence against OBL is, of course, highly relevant here).

KLA2 wrote:Besides, maybe he really was captured, and a kindly, gentle team of CIA agents are saying, "give us some information, please, pretty please with a cherry on top?" I would like to think so.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.

KLA2 wrote:We know he would not be hurt, because President Bush assured the world that the USA does not torture.

I have serious doubts as to the validity of that promise. But I'd like to make the point that not torturing people, e.g. detainees in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, would actually be good for the U.S..

KLA2 wrote:As for the disposition of the body, someone said it should be ground up, fed to rats, the rats fed to inebriated pigs, the pigs then served to residents of Guantanamo Bay.

I do not agree.

Rats deserve better.

I actually find this statment quite repulsive. Some islamic fundamentalists have said that the infidels are "worse than pigs". I can think of no reason at all why anyone would aspire to reach down to that level - even if every inmate of Guantanamo were indeed a terrorist as bad as or worse than OBL. Which they aren't, see Heid's statement.

If we act or even speak at the same level of depravity as Islamist terrorists do, which moral high ground can we claim?
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Postby Мастер » Wed May 04, 2011 8:48 pm

Arneb wrote:
KLA2 wrote:We know he would not be hurt, because President Bush assured the world that the USA does not torture.

I have serious doubts as to the validity of that promise.


Under the definition of torture he used, it might actually be true :)

But, UBL would very much have been on the world's radar, that would have offered him a level of protection against such things that less famous terrorists and/or suspects would not have enjoyed, I think. Supposedly, when Saddam Hussein slipped in the shower while in US physical (but Iraqi legal) custody, there was some concern that any injuries (as it turned out, not serious) he sustained would have been attributed to mistreatment.

But there is another way - outsourcing! Wasn't there that fellow a few years back who begin to sing like a canary, when the Americans threatened to turn him over to the Kenyans?

Even that solution might not have worked in this case though. I don't think the Americans would have trusted any other country with their prize.
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Postby Superluminal » Wed May 04, 2011 9:18 pm

Heid the Ba' wrote:
Superluminal wrote:With all the controversy over his burial at sea. We should have stuffed his body with explosives, then released it to who ever wanted it, then detinated it at the funeral. Could have gotten a lot more terrorist then.

How does this differ morally from carbombing a marketpalce or flying a plane into a tower? You would simply be killing random people.

KLA2 wrote:As for the disposition of the body, someone said it should be ground up, fed to rats, the rats fed to inebriated pigs, the pigs then served to residents of Guantanamo Bay.


The residents of Guantanamo Bay are suspects, they haven't been convicted of anything, or even given the hope of a trial. They are still innocent in the eyes of the law.

Come on people, we're better than this.


Lighten up Heid, this is a chance to blow off steam. Of course, if the disposition of his body had been up to me, I would have had him buried in a secret unmarked grave. We're not the kind of people to drag bodys through the streets.
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Postby St. Jimmy » Thu May 05, 2011 12:49 am

So after reading and listening to all these different reports and retraction of comments and statements by officials, I have serious doubts about everything. And not because I'm some conspiracy theorist, but because the way the US officials are releasing information is inviting doubt.

This whole 10 year manhunt hasn't been about justice being served or trying to detain an evil man; it's been a US revenge quest from start to finish. I don't think the mission on Sunday ever including capturing him. Especially when, he was shot through the left eye while unarmed. I can't say I blame us, he claimed responsibility for thousands of innocent American's deaths caused by Al-Qaeda terrorist attacks.

This is the only thing I believe whole-heartedly. I'm gonna take back all other statements I've made on the Bin Ladin situation and wait until some more official statements and info are released from officials, as new things seem to be emerging every day.
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Postby KLA2 » Thu May 05, 2011 3:29 am

St. Jimmy wrote:So after reading and listening to all these different reports and retraction of comments and statements by officials, I have serious doubts about everything. And not because I'm some conspiracy theorist, but because the way the US officials are releasing information is inviting doubt.

This whole 10 year manhunt hasn't been about justice being served or trying to detain an evil man; it's been a US revenge quest from start to finish. I don't think the mission on Sunday ever including capturing him. Especially when, he was shot through the left eye while unarmed. I can't say I blame us, he claimed responsibility for thousands of innocent American's deaths caused by Al-Qaeda terrorist attacks.

This is the only thing I believe whole-heartedly. I'm gonna take back all other statements I've made on the Bin Ladin situation and wait until some more official statements and info are released from officials, as new things seem to be emerging every day.


Yes. I think most people are annoyed that the US cannot get their facts (lies?) straight. May be due to the "fog of battle" and the speed of news (some, appearently, twittered within minutes of the event.)

Yes, Jimmy, war sucks. It is never about justice and honor; it is about winning at any cost by any means. Probably should be avoided, where possible.

Bin laden was evil beyond guilty, and had to die. I only wish I could die so quickly and easily. :evil:

I wish he could have suffered the pain and loss of every single one of the victims resulting from his actions. Weep for them. Demand justice serve them. :evil:
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Postby KLA2 » Thu May 05, 2011 4:08 am

Arneb wrote:
KLA2 wrote:Come on, Arneb.

?
Come where? Or is this simply to say that you can't take me seriously? In that case, you can stop reading.

Jeeze, Arneb, you are so darned sensitive. I respect you greatly, and take you seriously. That does not mean I will never disagree or discuss an issue with you.

KLA2 wrote:Had he been taken alive, put on trial, jailed, ... fanatical followers would be kidnapping innocents and torturing/murdering/mailing body parts demanding OBL's release.


OK, so you can't take hostages to demand the release of someone who is already dead. No argument there. But so what? Islamist terrorists don't generelly take hostages in order to have their demands fulfilled. They make impossible-to-fulfil demands in order to have a pretext for slashing their hostages' throats as publicly as possible (Daniel Pearl, anyone?). And, will terrorists hell-bent on destroying Western civilisation act any more friendly and likeably because a navy SEAL commando killed OBL instead of taking him prisoner? Will they be any less likely to butcher innocent people because OBL was shot in the head while in bed with his wife, unarmed - instead of being handcuffed, hooded, and rushed off in a helicopter? No, Islamist terrorism will do anything, and as cruelly as possible. A living and convicted OBL wouldn't change that at all.

I do not agree. In the past, "enemies of the state" have gone to extraordinary (brutal) means to "liberate" incarcerated "leaders." Granted, a terrorist will do do anything to inspire terror. It is not that far right fringe you hope to affect. It is those to the left. If you get my drift.


You see, I wouldn't EVER criticise the actions of the team that went in there. Because I don't know what happend there, and I don't know what their orders were.

See my previous comments. Maybe the SEALS were ordered to kill him on sight. Maybe they thought he was going for a weapon under his pillow. Maybe if he had thrown up his hands and said, "I surrender." Maybe more facts(?) will be released.

I merely point out that my personal preference would have been taking OBL alive: He, convicted as criminal, in spite of being given all the rights criminal suspects enjoy in the Free World, and in spite of being given good medical treatment, food and spiritual counsel, would have shown how strong the Free World and its leading nation, the US, really are (Mactep's interjection about the quality of the actual evidence against OBL is, of course, highly relevant here).

Well, see my previous comments on the actions terrorists will take to "free" leaders. Would the loss of one more life be justified? Millions of dollars in court costs? And, possibly, acquital on legal technicalities?

KLA2 wrote:Besides, maybe he really was captured, and a kindly, gentle team of CIA agents are saying, "give us some information, please, pretty please with a cherry on top?" I would like to think so.

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.

Sarcasm. But, you knew that.

KLA2 wrote:We know he would not be hurt, because President Bush assured the world that the USA does not torture.

I have serious doubts as to the validity of that promise. But I'd like to make the point that not torturing people, e.g. detainees in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, would actually be good for the U.S..

Sarcasm. I do not approve morally or logically of the use of torture, except under extraordinary, controlled and monitored circumstances.

KLA2 wrote:As for the disposition of the body, someone said it should be ground up, fed to rats, the rats fed to inebriated pigs, the pigs then served to residents of Guantanamo Bay.

I do not agree.

Rats deserve better.


I actually find this statment quite repulsive. Some islamic fundamentalists have said that the infidels are "worse than pigs". I can think of no reason at all why anyone would aspire to reach down to that level - even if every inmate of Guantanamo were indeed a terrorist as bad as or worse than OBL. Which they aren't, see Heid's statement.

Geeze, Arneb, lighten up. Again sarcasm/letting off steam. (Although, not being religious, if my corpse is disposed of in that way, I really do not care. Bon apatit to the rats, etc.)

If we act or even speak at the same level of depravity as Islamist terrorists do, which moral high ground can we claim?


Yes. You are absolutely right. I have said the same thing myself to right wing raving religious Christian, and non-Christian, loonies.

But I think this evil man, the consequences of his actions, and the (self-confessed, videotaped) evidence of his complicity/guilt, are far different than an accusation against a man who may or may not have murdered his wife.

I will concede that legally, philosophically, on an ideal plane, you are probably right and I wrong.
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