For those "conservatives" wishing to be "wate

[rmercure]

Well folks, still don't know how I feel about internet forms accomplishing "anything" but as long as I've got your "electronic ear" wanted to note that this is the "International Day of in Support of Victims of Torture!" With special note that the US torture factory at Guantanamo Bay is still open despite our Prez, and other leaders, promise to close it; that we still have the blood of Abu Ghraib on our hands; our military, CIA and "clandestine" services still support it as an information gathering technique (despite the universal acknowledgement of it's uselessness as someone being tortured will admit to "anything" to stop being tortured) and that more and more our judicial institutions (read "Supreme Court) refuse condemn use of the "old 3rd degree!" So, if this forum is, as Appalachians tend to say, "worth the tits on a bull" why not use it in addition to solely mocking every crackpot conspiracy theory on the planet to also, actively resist with actions and postings, the slow dismemberment of the soul, spirit, and bodies of those who resist the unjust actions of religions, causes, "movements" and governments - some of those same we mock. With the special note of the continued mutilation of adolescent women by so called "female circumcision!" With particular note that it is the supposed "conservatives" who most heartily support torture (John McCain being a notable exception - might have something to do with his own Viet Nam experiences). In "indignant respect" - Rob

[Lance]

There are some, albiet very few, cases in which I believe using whatever means are necessary to extract required information is acceptable. VERY few, but greater than zero.

[Heid the Ba]

I would say there are no circumstances in which torture is acceptable, it is one of the ways we know who the good guys are.

[Superluminal]

And what the U.S. does that is called torture, pales in significance with what other countries do.

rmercure, if you were in a poition of responsibility for the lives of other people, or the security of a nation, I think your position on "enhanced interrogation", would become a bit more tempore. When reality hits, that is.

[KLA2]

Well, rmercure, I mostly agree with you, but I have expressed my opinion on this previously.

http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/Forums/v ... 754#124754

To those conditions I might add oversight at a high level, signed off on. When feasible.

[rmercure]

Well, to those whose basements are full of iron maidens (mummified Margaret Thatcher) and other "enhanced interrogation" devices: I still maintain, all morality aside (wanna volunteer your kids or spouse) that the information obtained is garbage and information of equal quality can be obtained in better, more accurate ways. I think I noted already that John McCain voted against our torture legislation stating the same thing - that someone being tortured will admit to "anything" to stop the torture. Useless! And it's a truly cheap shot "if you were responsible for, etc." as this is first a almost religious guilt trip and second a variety of "I know and you don't ignoramous!" Well I don't have personal experience as a torturer (other than tickling my younger brother when we were young) but I'm a reference librarian's son, I grew up in libraries, I read voraciously and constantly and get absolutely none of my information from commercial television - especially the neo-nazi Fox network which has been caught in so many out right lies I'd be embarassed to work there. No, I'm not a paranoid sadist who believes and useful accurate information is generated by the physical, emotional, and mental degradion of other humans and I'll publically challenge "anyone" to produce documentation that demonstrates that torture derived information is of good quality and not simply parroting what the torturer wants the victim to say!!! Any study or analysis coming from the DOD, NSA, CIA, and other "clandestine" sources is by nature contaminated - and that's much of the trouble, no one with a neutral view point, even with appropriate security clearance, is allowed to review the torture system - anyone doing such research would slant it in fear of losing their security clearance and "whistleblowers" disappear from site. The mafia has a superior moral code - at least they have one! While the clandestine torture machine reports to no one, thus no one can make an honest unbiased decision.

Do you whip you dog, beat you spouse, chain your kids upside down, plant bugs on your neighbors, tap your office phone lines? Might as well - if you believe in this medieval shit now that you've lost the outlet the Inquisition provided you'll go out and find your "witches" somewhere - it's the nature of paranoids!!

So, as we say in the hills, "put up or shut up" - I've got sufficient support that torture is ineffective and inefficient and degrading to the individuals on boths sides of the water board - if you can prove something do so (or are you afraid your Nazi buddies will turn on you). Bet you believe in land mines that look like toys also!

Rob

[Superluminal]

rmercure, I get the impression that if you could get your hands on a Fox news reporter, you would do far worse than "enhanced interogation". You'd do it just for fun. Your human, and in the right situation, you would torture someone. And probably make Gitmo look like a summer camp.

[KLA2]

rmercure, did you even bother to read my post? (right above yours) Would you care to rebut it, point by point? Or just rant on like an idealistic, unrealistic, ... person? Better the horrible suffering, and/or death, of one, or a hundred, thousand, million ... than pain inflicted on the monster intending this, to prevent it?

[tubeswell]

Hiya Rob, sorry I missed this back in June. I agree that torture is the prerogative of the powerful against the powerless. Personally, I count myself as human and would rather find another way of dealing with my suspicions and paranoia than resort to torturing some poor arsehole for a 'solution'. I'm on your side buddy.

[tubeswell]

OK so I go and find a buddy and you guys had to scare him off. Muchas gracias. How hard is it supposed to be to recruit souls here? Hmmm...

[MM_Dandy]

My apologies. I'll try to be less imposing in the future.

[Arneb]

OTOH, if you touch on a subject as torture you will expect to find controversy. I usually avoid those touchy subjects as long as I am not really into them, because I feel an acrimonious exchange is just not worth it.