President Donald J. Trump

[Enzo]

Oh, you'd probably get an argument from the gun nuts and conspiracists over Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians. But when it comes to a shoot-on-sight order, I think you are right.

Even if Kent state had been a federal operation, they didn't have the president telling them, "go ther and kill some students."

[Мастер]

I don't think Obama or any other President ever had other Americans killed on U.S. soil by Federal agencies.

I'm sure there are plenty of cases of people waving guns around, threatening the agents, or things like that.

But I think you might be right, walking down the street minding your own business is only a death-penalty offence when committed in other countries.

Regarding the Kent State attack, apart from the issue about which particular agency did it, the people involved in that said that they were under attack, and were defending themselves. Which, by the way, is what the US says about every attack it commits.

[Arneb]

Regarding the Kent State attack, apart from the issue about which particular agency did it, the people involved in that said that they were under attack, and were defending themselves. Which, by the way, is what the US says about every attack it commits.

Of course, but that's de riguer. Most people who have ever attacked anybody never attacked anybody, but defended themselves. Remember "seit 5 Uhr 45 wird zurückgeschossen"?

[Lance]

Remember "seit 5 Uhr 45 wird zurückgeschossen"?

I tried Google Translate but I didn't understand what it meant. So no, I don't remember it at all.

[Мастер]

Remember "seit 5 Uhr 45 wird zurückgeschossen"?

I tried Google Translate but I didn't understand what it meant. So no, I don't remember it at all.

Without checking any source at all, I'm going to make a guess at what this means - it refers to the events of early morning on September 1st 1939.

Do I guess correctly?

[Arneb]

Yes. It is from the dirst news report of the war claiming that Polish troops had attacked some German border post or other. "Since 5:45 a.m., shots are being fired back. " They really did make up a story about Poland shooting first. The sentence symbolizes the Nazi propaganda machine so well, it has household status with some people here.

[MM_Dandy]

I don't think Obama or any other President ever had other Americans killed on U.S. soil by Federal agencies. Or is there any known case where that happened?

Depending on what you mean by Americans, you could include some of Plains Indians skirmishes, but otherwise, I guess you'd have to go back to the Civil War, I think. I've heard that the option to intercept and shoot down any remaining hijacked airliners was at least considered, but all the hijacked planes were destroyed and the rest accounted for before they had to make that decision.

[Enzo]

I know they are always ready to shoot down planes domestically, at least around Washington. My sister's house in a DC suburb abuts one anti-aircraft missle installation, across her back fence. it is within a local parkland space. But that would be invoked in an anti-terrorist attack situation, rather than a go shoot that guy scenario. Or downtown DC around the White House. again a law enforcement/protection situation rather than assassination.

[Arneb]

I wonder what they make of this in Moscow and Damaskus. All this effort in giving him a hand, and he strikes out at them at the sight of a few dying children? That's not the wood a true leader like Putin or Assad is cut out of.

[Enzo]

So we are tyrying to depose a despot? And we just shoot cruise missiles? And this will cause the people to rise up? Didn't this work out real well somewher else over there? Some place with a Q on the end?

If we create enough power vacuums in the mid-east, might they not combine to form a giant political black hole there?

[Arneb]

Hey, you depose an oriental despot and everything gets better automatically. It's easy! What cold go wrong?

[Lance]

Would it be better to do nothing? I certainly don't want to see Assad replaced by Isis but it doesn't break my heart that he got spanked for gassing kids with Sarin.

[Arneb]

I think that pretty much sums up America's, and the West's in general, problem in the Middle East since about 2000. Nobody sheds a tear for the likes of Mullah Omar, Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddhafi or Assad, but nobody can reliably, or believably, build up anything that's better than their silence of the graves (looking at the states Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc. are in compared to, say, 20 years ago, that seems sufficiently clear to me). If you just don't see any problem at all with murdering children, per se, like, say uncle Volodya, than fine: Get favours from them, help them keep existing and keep out any thoughts of "Democracy" or such shit. That only meddles in your geopolitics.

But as the West, which basically wants its policies to represent some values, have some moral guidance, and acknowledege some moral constraints, you have a problem. You can do it like Obama did in Syria (wag your index finger, get some small agreement like the chem weapons deal, and see later how much use that was) - And be shitstormed to Kingdom come. Or you can do it the way Obama did with Pakistan, or Yemen, or some areas of Iraq (Send everyone a drone, from Washington with love, who ever yells "Death to America" and even prepares to act on it) - and be shitstormed to Kingdom come. Or you can do it like Bush2 did in Iraq and Afghanistan (Blow away the dictator, get the troops in for a decade, get their hands dirty fighting insurgents, and leave when the polls really don't take it any more) - and be shitstromed to Kingdom come.

If you acknowledge that politics isn't just furthering your own interests, at whatever cost to someone else, and if you acknowledge there should be an informed and critical public: If you are the West, in other words - then sometimes all alternatives can be bad, one way or another. Uncle Volodya can sleep tight, meanwhile. No moral problems, no public to own up to, no-one except Forerign Agents to ask critical questions, and the sure knowledge that everything you did you did for Mother Russia.

[Lance]

So I guess the best hope is to not make things worse.

[Arneb]

Not making things worse there would be a lofty goal indeed. And it's true also that ISIS really, really desperately wants an American intervention in the Middle East. It served them just fine in Iraq.

The funny thing is how Tump gets widespread, if grudging support from all political sides, while his fan base is mad at him for breaking the "no meddling with Syria" mantra. Because, you know, everyone already knew Bashi and Volodya are casual about gassing a few kids in a rebel stronghold, and the Commander in Chief should never have allowed himself the weakness of executing a military operation against Someone Who Is At Least Not As Bad As ISIS because some dead children somewhere. Also, it's only muslim kids, so why waste 58 Tomahawks on it? These are expensive machinery, really. And wouldn't it be grat if we had better relations with Russia?

He's going through his allies pretty fast.

[Enzo]

Trump is highly skilled at burning bridges.

If we find Assad so contemptible we bomb his place, why have we not bombed North Korea? Why did we never intervene in Myanmar? How 'bout the various hot spots in Africa? They use machetes rather than gas, but...

I am no fan of Assad, but I guess my math is this: how many folks did Saddam kill a year, versus how many have died in the years since we intervened?

[Arneb]

I am no fan of Assad, but I guess my math is this: how many folks did Saddam kill a year, versus how many have died in the years since we intervened?

It's not a far-sighted concept, but I won't deny it's a useable metric. And our own Mactep always has a few figures handy when that question comes up, for whichever country in the Middle East you care to name.

[Lance]

I think Drumpf may be more inclined to intervene in situations like those mention above than previous administrations. So in this case, the "we" that didn't do anything before is a different "we" than it is now. Whether these actions will be seen as good or bad remains to be seen.

Regarding North Korea; Kim Jong-un has now seen that Drumpf is more than all talk. The ramifications of that remain to be seen as well.

[g-one]

Trump has so enraged the proponents of the 'assholeism' political movement (https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/trump-s ... ia-strike/) that I can't help but think something must be very wrong.
The move kind of makes sense, unlike all his other moves that usually warrant the 'chewbacca defence'.
I'm fully expecting to find out Bashar wasn't responsible for the chemmies after all, or some other cock-up.

[Lance]

Putin ordered Drumpf to strike Syria so he could then condemn it. It's a beard, meant to throw us off of their real relationship.

[Arneb]

Wow, that Putin shirtless wasn't even photoshopped!

[Enzo]

Trump says one option he has is to arm South Korea with nuclear weapons. yeah, that will work...

[Мастер]

Trump says one option he has is to arm South Korea with nuclear weapons. yeah, that will work...

Just speculating here, but I don't think South Korea (or Japan, or Taiwan) need any help to produce nuclear weapons; all it takes for them is the will to do so.

Interesting times they will be, when Mongolia is the only country in North Asia without nuclear weapons.

[Lance]

Doesn't Mongolia have small horses? I would fear the little horses.

[Мастер]