President Donald J. Trump

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby g-one » Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:21 pm

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:39 pm

Amen.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:36 pm

So, the defense in the Manafort trial rested without calling any witnesses or presenting any evidence. I assume that they'll give a closing argument tomorrow, but still, that can't be good.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:39 pm

MAybe they hope to discredit the process.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:39 pm

I imagine that they will lean hard on the character flaws of the state's witnesses. And then years of appeals.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:25 pm

CNN reports that there were two parts to the defense's closing arguments: 1. Manafort didn't mean to defraud anybody, and 2. It was all Rick Gates' fault, anyway.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Oh... well then we are sorry to have detained you Mr. Manafort.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:30 pm

And maybe that was all the defense they needed. Whatever in the world could the jury still be deliberating is beyond me.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby g-one » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:30 pm

MM_Dandy wrote:Whatever in the world could the jury still be deliberating is beyond me.

Probably deliberating that the commander in chimp has intimated that the whole thing is "bad, mkay". The jury must be at least somewhat representative of the populace (ie. a few there must not list "thinking" among their strong points).

Which reminds me of this:

trumpus.jpg
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:22 pm

Manafort has been found guilty on only 8 of the 18 charges. The other 10 were all hung, resulting in a mistrial on those counts. Yay, I guess? Most legal analysts that I've read assumed that he would be found guilty on most, if not all, counts. Eight is less than half. But, it's more than zero, and there's still another trial to go.

In other related news, it sounds like Cohen is negotiating a plea deal, although it seems that he's not interested in selling out Trump.

Edit: I should say that Cohen doesn't wish to cooperate with the Mueller collusion investigation. Pleading guilty to violating campaign finance laws on Trump's behalf certainly doesn't do the orange one any favors.

So, overall, progress has been made. It's not as clear-cut and definitive as I'd like it to be, but I suppose that's probably closer to the reality of the situation, anyway.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:09 pm

I've never understood why this giant-sized twat wanted to be president in the first place.

His life must have been pretty good. Enough money to do just about whatever he likes, he could be enjoying retirement if he likes, or continuing in his business ventures if that's his preference. Either one of those strike me as better than being subject to the breath of every fool.

Now, leaving office in disgrace, and possibly even dying in prison, don't seem like completely unrealistic possibilities.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:21 pm

g-one wrote:
orwell.jpg


Well, I'm going to argue that that one would have been appropriate long before Trump appeared on the scene.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby wring » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:08 pm

Мастер wrote:I've never understood why this giant-sized twat wanted to be president in the first place.

His life must have been pretty good. Enough money to do just about whatever he likes, he could be enjoying retirement if he likes, or continuing in his business ventures if that's his preference. Either one of those strike me as better than being subject to the breath of every fool.

Now, leaving office in disgrace, and possibly even dying in prison, don't seem like completely unrealistic possibilities.

I don't believe he actually wanted it.

My theory is: many years ago, his businesses were all crapping out, multiple bankruptcy filings. No US banks would lend him money (ya think? ) he had multiple lawsuits against him for failing to pay contractors etc, he was, on paper a very poor credit risk. And if you can't borrow money at those levels, he couldn't make and spend money. That was his whole thing.

Enter the Russian banks. They loaned him money. They filled his Trump tower by buying apartments. They continued to loan him money. They've got him by the balls. They wanted him to run. They wanted him to win. They cheated their way to both. And since they had him by the balls, and in a position of power, they've since gotten: major concessions on the Republican platform. And although Congress has ordered upping sanctions on Russia, it hasn't happened. Watch, they gotten nearly everything that they wanted. He damn near instantly gave them secrets about Israel.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:25 pm

David Pecker (yes, really), CEO of the company that publishes the National Enquirer and a longtime friend of Donald Trump has been granted immunity in Michael Cohen case. You just can't make this stuff up!

The headlines:
Pecker Pulls Out, Unloads On Trump
And:
Trump Worried About Pecker Leaking
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

==========================================

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby g-one » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:57 am

Maybe Arneb or some others with more historical expertise than I will comment on the accuracy of this article, but I did find the ending statement to be both valid and troubling:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultu ... -an-empire
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Heid the Ba » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:37 am

Carter's book, called "The Three Emperors" here, had mixed reviews and I must admit I found it a bit dull, she has a habit of telling you everything she knows but not why you should know it. There are valid parallels between Trump and Wilhelm II, but also between Trump and Edward VIII or Churchill. The nature of empire and monarchy was changed by the Great War with four empires (arguably five if you include Britain) not surviving so it was that rather than the Kaiser which caused problems. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was shattered beyond repair though lead at the end by a competent, amiable man, the Turks had been led by an ineffectual Sultan and became a secular republic, Russia was lead by an emperor every bit as ineffectual as the Kaiser, though personally charming. I think Carter is seeing some connections but ignoring others, and also ignoring differences. For all the recent societal changes in the last few decades I don't think they add up to a similar threat to the style of government.

I'm assuming the final sentence is a suggestion that after Trump comes Hitler, but in Germany there was fifteen years, hyperinflation, the Great Depression etc. between the two. The US would have to suffer some apocalyptic crisis of confidence for that to follow.

If Trump goes and is replaced by Pence then you replace uncertainty and erratic behaviour with someone who is just as dangerous but at least stable. Pence is a true believer and a horrible person but he seems to realise that keeping treaty obligations and having friends abroad is important. If Trump sees out his term and is replaced by a democrat then there should be a return to a more balanced government. The electorate is another matter, that genie is out of the bottle and it may take a generation or more to get back to where they were, particularly since the Republicans are filling every judge's position with any bigot they can find. If the Democrats manage their Blue Wave in November then we will find out just how autocratic Trump and Pence are prepared to be.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lianachan » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:06 am

Heid the Ba wrote:Carter's book, called "The Three Emperors" here, had mixed reviews and I must admit I found it a bit dull, she has a habit of telling you everything she knows but not why you should know it. There are valid parallels between Trump and Wilhelm II, but also between Trump and Edward VIII or Churchill. The nature of empire and monarchy was changed by the Great War with four empires (arguably five if you include Britain) not surviving so it was that rather than the Kaiser which caused problems. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was shattered beyond repair though lead at the end by a competent, amiable man, the Turks had been led by an ineffectual Sultan and became a secular republic, Russia was lead by an emperor every bit as ineffectual as the Kaiser, though personally charming. I think Carter is seeing some connections but ignoring others, and also ignoring differences. For all the recent societal changes in the last few decades I don't think they add up to a similar threat to the style of government.

I'm assuming the final sentence is a suggestion that after Trump comes Hitler, but in Germany there was fifteen years, hyperinflation, the Great Depression etc. between the two. The US would have to suffer some apocalyptic crisis of confidence for that to follow.

If Trump goes and is replaced by Pence then you replace uncertainty and erratic behaviour with someone who is just as dangerous but at least stable. Pence is a true believer and a horrible person but he seems to realise that keeping treaty obligations and having friends abroad is important. If Trump sees out his term and is replaced by a democrat then there should be a return to a more balanced government. The electorate is another matter, that genie is out of the bottle and it may take a generation or more to get back to where they were, particularly since the Republicans are filling every judge's position with any bigot they can find. If the Democrats manage their Blue Wave in November then we will find out just how autocratic Trump and Pence are prepared to be.


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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:04 am

Heid the Ba wrote:Carter's book, called "The Three Emperors" here, had mixed reviews and I must admit I found it a bit dull, she has a habit of telling you everything she knows but not why you should know it. There are valid parallels between Trump and Wilhelm II, but also between Trump and Edward VIII or Churchill. The nature of empire and monarchy was changed by the Great War with four empires (arguably five if you include Britain) not surviving so it was that rather than the Kaiser which caused problems. The Austro-Hungarian Empire was shattered beyond repair though lead at the end by a competent, amiable man, the Turks had been led by an ineffectual Sultan and became a secular republic, Russia was lead by an emperor every bit as ineffectual as the Kaiser, though personally charming. I think Carter is seeing some connections but ignoring others, and also ignoring differences. For all the recent societal changes in the last few decades I don't think they add up to a similar threat to the style of government.

I'm assuming the final sentence is a suggestion that after Trump comes Hitler, but in Germany there was fifteen years, hyperinflation, the Great Depression etc. between the two. The US would have to suffer some apocalyptic crisis of confidence for that to follow.

If Trump goes and is replaced by Pence then you replace uncertainty and erratic behaviour with someone who is just as dangerous but at least stable. Pence is a true believer and a horrible person but he seems to realise that keeping treaty obligations and having friends abroad is important. If Trump sees out his term and is replaced by a democrat then there should be a return to a more balanced government. The electorate is another matter, that genie is out of the bottle and it may take a generation or more to get back to where they were, particularly since the Republicans are filling every judge's position with any bigot they can find. If the Democrats manage their Blue Wave in November then we will find out just how autocratic Trump and Pence are prepared to be.

I couldn't have put it nearly as well. Comparing the characters and then saying, just look what came of it is tempting, but today's U.S. (and basically, all the world) is a very, very far apart from 19th century Germany. Also, I don't think that anyone who wants to be taken seriously gives Willi zwo sole responsibility for WWI - or for Hitler, for that matter.

Adding to 15 years, hyperinflation, the Great Depression I'd name the traty of Versailles. That humiliation brought a horrible payback.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Heid the Ba » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:44 am

Arneb wrote:I couldn't have put it nearly as well. Comparing the characters and then saying, just look what came of it is tempting, but today's U.S. (and basically, all the world) is a very, very far apart from 19th century Germany. Also, I don't think that anyone who wants to be taken seriously gives Willi zwo sole responsibility for WWI - or for Hitler, for that matter.

Indeed, Little Willie had sweeping powers but there are plenty of others who are just as responsible. It is unlikely the Kaiser would have done much if not goaded on by Bethman Hollweg, Falkenhayn, Zimmerman et al. Trump has Bolton egging him on but not the military chiefs or Zuckerberg, Bezos, etc.

Adding to 15 years, hyperinflation, the Great Depression I'd name the treaty of Versailles. That humiliation brought a horrible payback.

I knew I had forgotten something obvious. :D
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby g-one » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:06 pm

Just the kind of thought provoking analysis I was looking for, thanks all.

Heid the Ba wrote:I'm assuming the final sentence is a suggestion that after Trump comes Hitler, but in Germany there was fifteen years, hyperinflation, the Great Depression etc. between the two. The US would have to suffer some apocalyptic crisis of confidence for that to follow.

I took the last line to be implying that simply getting rid of Trump would not necessarily resolve the current climate, as there are underlying issues that he is partly just a symptom of.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:49 pm

I think that's precisely why Trump isn't so important after all. If people voted for him because he belittles, vilifies and denigrates democracy, the rule of law and universal rights for every human, they will vote for someone doing just that after Trump, too.

Like Trump, but competent. That is what gives me the creeps in the year 2018.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:28 am

g-one wrote:that he is partly just a symptom of.


^this^

There’s always someone like Trump. Used to be, hardly anyone voted for them. Now they do.

When Trump fails to bring back the good jobs at the saw mill, which way will it go? Intensification, or the pendulum swinging the other way.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Heid the Ba » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:17 am

g-one wrote:I took the last line to be implying that simply getting rid of Trump would not necessarily resolve the current climate, as there are underlying issues that he is partly just a symptom of.

I think you're right since Pence, the Alt-Right etc. will still be there and still as toxic.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:51 pm

But I suspect Pence and other right wingers would not as a group all act on whimsy and personal spite. I doubt Pence would off the cuff announce a new Space Force. I doubt Pence would use the pulpit of the POTUS to bitch about individuals he didn;t like. Does the rest of the world care what Trump thinks of Rosie O'Donnel?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:05 pm

I, for one...

I agree that most other right wingers wouldn't act childishly like he does. And of course one can constantly writhe in pain at the indignity and disgrace he smears his office with. But it also makes him ineffectual. It is someone with the sheer hatred of American values that Trump has, but with competence that makes me scared. Someone who would not fume at Rosie O'Donnell or the free press but go about destroying them slowly, calmly and deliberatetely, with full knowledge of the power and resistance of American institutions, and with no illusions about the uphill struggle he faces. Someone like that could actually succeed.
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