President Donald J. Trump

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:56 pm

Lance wrote:most of the things said about Trump are true


Oh, I heard a lot of things about Trump that I strongly suspect are not true. E.g., I heard he wasn't a racist, he wouldn't carry through on his more extreme policies once he got elected, etc.

But we'll see.

Lance wrote:while most of the things said about Hillary were not.


I've been out of your country for a long time now, and truth be told, I mostly zoned out whenever I saw news coverage of the Hitler v Stalin election.

What sorts of things did people say about her that weren't true? I know why I don't like her, but I'm one of those extremists who think the rest of the world wasn't put there by God to be practice targets for the American military. Hell, I even use A4 paper, a sure sign of perfidy.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:30 pm

Trump just described his administration as a "Well Oiled Machine". Here is a video example of another well oiled machine:

Watch on youtube.com
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:58 pm

FZR1KG wrote:
Enzo wrote:... He is slamming through all the superficial changes he said he would...


That is a novelty in politics right there. Fulfilling promises, regardless of how crappy they are!


FiveThirtyEight would disagree with that assessment.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:59 pm

Lance wrote:
FZR1KG wrote:the most unpopular presidential candidate in history [vs.] the second most unpopular presidential candidate in history

For me, the most frustrating part of it was that most of the things said about Trump are true while most of the things said about Hillary were not.

The True Winner: Stupidity
The True Loser: The whole population of the entire world, whether they know it or not.

In my opinion, she handled the Benghazi situation poorly, but I don't believe that it rose to the level of criminal action. Same thing with the e-mails, especially when you consider that routing e-mails in that way had been commonly done since at least Bush II. In any case, I can agree that she was a better candidate than Trump.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:04 pm

MM_Dandy wrote:In my opinion, she handled the Benghazi situation poorly, but I don't believe that it rose to the level of criminal action.

I agree. It could have been handled differently and much better. Some of it was beyond her control and some of it was bogus all along.

For example: She was criticized for not telling the truth to the families or media about who was behind the attacks. In the initial hours, the information she had was still classified and it was not her call to release it. She was repeating the cover story.

She was also accused of ordering the military away and withholding troops that could have helped. That was a blatant lie from the very beginning, yet was parroted repeatedly by Trump and the rest of the right.

For what it's worth, embassy protection is coordinated by the Diplomat Protective Service and provided by the U.S. Marine Corps. The DPS is the same organization that protects foreign dignitaries when they visit the U.S. They are a completely different entity within the State Department than the Diplomatic Corps, of which the Secretary of State is the leader. She would never have been involved in that side of it. Those lines simply don't cross.

Too much of the stuff said about her was false. And too many people were too stupid to see it.

MM_Dandy wrote:Same thing with the e-mails, especially when you consider that routing e-mails in that way had been commonly done since at least Bush II. In any case, I can agree that she was a better candidate than Trump.

She commented that she didn't want to have to carry 2 devices. And MANY people stepped up after the fact to whine "here, let me show you how to have both your emails on one phone". Having worked in the large enterprise environment for the likes of AT&T, IBM, Lucent Technologies and BP, and can tell you this: Back in that timeframe, you were NOT ALLOWED to access non-business related email from a business provided device. This was for security. They didn't want to risk you getting your device infected and being vulnerable to giving access to your business email or even the internal IP network. And conversely, you were not permitted to access your business email from a personal device because your email was "company property" and your personal device was not a secure place to store it.

Things have changed a lot since then but I doubt the government would have been much different than I business in that regard.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:58 pm

Lance wrote:She was also accused of ordering the military away and withholding troops that could have helped. That was a blatant lie from the very beginning, yet was parroted repeatedly by Trump and the rest of the right.



She knew Christopher Stevens asked about getting more protection and didn't take it seriously. She claimed he was just joking. An ambassador in a country going through a revolution is joking about security in a country that the US pulled the strings to start. Right...

She totally screwed that situation but, this is what was really important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y

I think the big thing that made Hillary unpopular was her ties to Bill and lets not forget Bill was the guy that said he wants the American people to know, he did NOT have sexual relations with that woman. Monica Lewinsky.
That made him a pos liar that will lie right to your face.
Then his wife did the same thing multiple times when claiming she was under sniper fire. When people that were there started claiming it was bullshit, she directed the flame to them trying to insinuate they were incompetent or joking. A standard deflection technique for her.
You don't lie directly to the American people, claim you're telling the truth then try to blame someone else when caught. That's what makes you completely untrustworthy to the independents. Lets face facts, they are the ones that sway most elections as there are about 40% independents now which is more than either the republicans or the Democrats. Both the other parties need to realize that they need to court them more than their own base which is almost always going to vote the party line.

Of course Trump is actually proud of lying and won, so wtf do I know. lol
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:14 pm

Arneb wrote:
FZR1KG wrote:
Enzo wrote:... He is slamming through all the superficial changes he said he would...


That is a novelty in politics right there. Fulfilling promises, regardless of how crappy they are!


FiveThirtyEight would disagree with that assessment.


Lots of people disagree with me, but I do question their methods of determining what was a campaign promise and how it was fulfilled. Even the article does because you can make it match whatever you want when definitions are non existent or vague. Much the same way I questioned when politifact came out and claimed Hillary is more honest than Sanders. She's even more honest and can get the job done when under sniper fire!
There used to be a saying; there are lies, damned lies and statistics. We can append political truths to the end of that and it's an exponential scale.

In any case, my comment was meant to be more satirical than anything else.

For the record, in case it isn't clear, I think Trump is a pos so this isn't a defense of Trump.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:55 pm

FZR1KG wrote:Of course Trump is actually proud of lying and won, so wtf do I know. lol

Right???
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:01 pm

This was wonderful:

Video Clip of Trump: "The media keeps saying I'm 'ranting and raving'. I'm not ranting and raving, I'm just pointing how much the 'dishonest media' lies about everything I say."

Wolf Blitzer (CNN): "And here's a clip of Donald Trump ranting and raving about the 'dishonest media' again."

:glp-1rof1:
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:08 pm

Holy hell, that press conference.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:32 am

I know, right?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:38 am

Lance wrote:
FZR1KG wrote:Of course Trump is actually proud of lying and won, so wtf do I know. lol

Right???


Well more seriously, this election cycle was unique in the history of American politics. Both parties had a large percentage reject the party line politics machine. The Republicans even though they tried couldn't stop Trump getting elected to represent them. The DNC however managed to swing the election to favor the party line favorite and there is a lot of controversy surrounding that. Not heat they rigged the election mind you, but rather if they have the right to rig their own elections or not. Go figure.

Ultimately the anti-establishment movement won against the party "business as usual" politics. Unfortunately there was only one non establishment figure and that was Trump. Between the Republican loyalists, who just like the Democratic party loyalists will vote for anyone that represents the party, and the independents who were screaming for non establishment politicians, Trump prevailed. What made it worse was that the Clinton campaign completely missed the obvious. The people wanted change from party political bullshit and in a strange twist of irony, they ran their campaign on the principle of "more of the same". Talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees. They still can't. Even now they are blaming the Russians for outing them for trying to rig the election so Hillary wins the primaries. It's like a a criminal blaming the person that reported him instead of accepting they did the wrong thing to begin with. You know, complaining that they got caught instead of understanding that they did the wrong thing. Even a 5 year old can get that reasoning but apparently the DNC still can't.

The problem here is that unless they figure it out, guess what's going to happen in 2020?
As much as I hate to say it, but if they are so damned stupid to not even understand the mood of the nation and its problems, they wouldn't have been a great pick anyway. All that would have happened is they would have delayed the inevitable and in the process make the reaction worse when it finally came.

The only good thing out of this is that Trump is a fucking narcissistic prick who most likely won't be able to get far in the big scheme of things. For example, imagine Trump trying to sway allies to go to war. Most other countries now think the USA has a sizable moron population and shouldn't be taken seriously. What country could now take the US seriously after electing Trump as leader?
Unfortunately this will also destabilize the world. The question is if it would be better now or delay things till a real psychopath gets elected. Time will ultimately decide that one.

So in other happy news, I made an awesome Thai red curry today. :)
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:14 am

Don't mind me. I'm just pissed off because they could have put up a drovers dog against Trump and it would have won. The FDNC managed to push through probably the only person on Earth that couldn't, then put her up against him and wondered what happened.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:48 am

I think part of the problem with the GOP is that no one looked at him as a serious threat until it was too late. They ignored his cute little "playing with matches" right up until he burned the house down.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:55 am

I suspect that was the same problem with the DNC.
Either way, it just means neither party is really in touch with the people they are meant to serve.
Pretty depressing really.
The good news is that I'll be cooking baby back ribs soon. :)
The better news is I'm on a catamaran in Florida and if the shit really hits the fan, we're out of here!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:18 am

The DNC was a bit more complicated I think. There was also the issue of far too many people believing so much about her that was absolutely false. Not to dismiss everything else, but without that one thing, we'd be addressing Madam President instead of His Royal Cheetoness.

ETA: People actually still believe Hillary was involved in a child sex ring run out of a pizza place.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:17 am

Lance wrote:The DNC was a bit more complicated I think. There was also the issue of far too many people believing so much about her that was absolutely false. Not to dismiss everything else, but without that one thing, we'd be addressing Madam President instead of His Royal Cheetoness.

ETA: People actually still believe Hillary was involved in a child sex ring run out of a pizza place.


OK, but we do we think that had much influence? Were there many people who were thinking about voting for her, then heard she was was running a child sex ring out of a pizza restaurant, and decided not to?

I suspect the people who believe these more extraordinary sorts of things were most likely never going to vote for her anyway.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:11 am

Мастер wrote:OK, but we do we think that had much influence? Were there many people who were thinking about voting for her, then heard she was was running a child sex ring out of a pizza restaurant, and decided not to?

I suspect the people who believe these more extraordinary sorts of things were most likely never going to vote for her anyway.

That one thing, no. That was one extreme example of a pervasive problem. I spoke with numerous people who were in the "Trump only because never Hillary" camp and when asked why never Hillary, they'd list off several things that were exaggerations at best and completely false at worst. Enough of that adds up, and does real harm.

Go ask 100 average people who said "I can see Russia from my house" and I'll bet you 85 of them will answer Sarah Palin. In fact, it was Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live. The truth doesn't matter. Perception becomes reality.

Trump and Co. repeated over and over about Hillary's "illegal mail server" with "10s of thousands of classified emails" that were all "hacked by the bad guys". But the server and her usage of it were not illegal and there were only slightly over a hundred emails that got classified after the fact but weren't at the time. And AT the time there were a grand total of THREE emails that were classified and even those were improperly marked.

That's just one more example, but LOTS of people held that against her even though none of it was true.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:05 am

Lance wrote:Go ask 100 average people who said "I can see Russia from my house" and I'll bet you 85 of them will answer Sarah Palin. In fact, it was Tina Fey on Saturday Night Live. The truth doesn't matter. Perception becomes reality.


I agree with that, but is the chain of causality,

"Sarah Palin said, 'I can see Russia from my house'" ==> "Sarah Palin is an idiot" ==> "I won't vote for Sarah Palin"

or is it more like

"I don't like Sarah Palin" ==> "I will believe any criticism, however ludicrous, of this person I already have decided I don't like"

So did they not vote for McCain/Palin because Tina Fey mocked her, or did they find Tina Fey's mocking funny because they already didn't like the victim?

Lance wrote:Trump and Co. repeated over and over about Hillary's "illegal mail server" with "10s of thousands of classified emails" that were all "hacked by the bad guys". But the server and her usage of it were not illegal and there were only slightly over a hundred emails that got classified after the fact but weren't at the time. And AT the time there were a grand total of THREE emails that were classified and even those were improperly marked.

That's just one more example, but LOTS of people held that against her even though none of it was true.


Same question - was this belief influential? Did it change people's votes?

There were persistent rumours about Obama being born in Kenya, or some variation thereof. As nearly as I can tell, these rumours do not have the slightest basis in fact, but a lot of people at least suspected that they were true. I never heard of anyone who was an Obama supporter who believed this. So there are at least two possible causal chains that would explain the absence of "birthers" among Obama supporters:

a) "I find rumours that Barack Obama was born in Kenya credible" ==> "Therefore I will not support Barack Obama"

or

b) "I don't support Barack Obama" ==> "I believe any old crap rumour with no basis in fact, as long as it's critical of Barack Obama"

Which is it?

I find people are incredibly good about extending leniency to those with whom they sympathise, while being very strict with those they don't like. The politician I like said something stupid because he was tired, under stress, his comments were misinterpreted, whatever. The politician I don't like said something stupid because he's an idiot, and so is anyone who votes for him. Ask Americans about the My Lai massacre, a lot of them well say, well, the American soldiers were young people, they were in an incredibly difficult, stressful situation, they made some bad judgements in the heat of battle, you can't judge because you don't know what it's like to be in combat, etc. I haven't yet met the American who will say about 9/11 hijackers, well, some of these people had a lot of problems in their lives, they were under pressure or stress, they were young and impulsive, they fell under the spell of some preacher who misled them, sure they made a mistake, but you can't judge them too harshly without considering all the circumstances, etc. My Lai soldiers get the benefit of the doubt; 9/11 hijackers get none. Maybe in some other parts of the world, it's the other way around.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:28 am

It is both. The hard core will always snap onto made up stories to bolster their position, but in the middle some people will be knocked off the fence by these stories. In other words it won't eat into your core support, but you may collect from the undecided middle ground.

In the case of Palin vs Fey, Sarah never said she could see Russia from her house, but the idea came from Sarah telling us we could see Russia from Alaska. it just got tweaked for the humor. Palin already had shown a penchant for alternative facts, so it fit well.

What I found really effective was when Fey, who does an excellent version of Palin, stood in front of cameras making what sounded like gibberish. we find out what she was really doing was verbatim Palin speech material. The gibberish was actually Palin's.

As is usually the case, I don;t think the VP candidates were a major factor in that election. Ask the next ten people you encounter on the street who was Hillary's running mate, I;'d wager more than half won't recall.

I talked to a lot of people about the election, it still comes up. I hear two complaints about Hillary. "She lied". No more specification than that, and ignoring that Trump made up lies from whole cloth daily. The other complaint was "Benghazi." No explanation,. they usually had no idea what ever occurred there, but "Benghazi" was sufficient.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:54 pm

Enzo wrote:I
In the case of Palin vs Fey, Sarah never said she could see Russia from her house, but the idea came from Sarah telling us we could see Russia from Alaska. it just got tweaked for the humor. Palin already had shown a penchant for alternative facts, so it fit well.

What I found really effective was when Fey, who does an excellent version of Palin, stood in front of cameras making what sounded like gibberish. we find out what she was really doing was verbatim Palin speech material. The gibberish was actually Palin's.


Totally agree. Palin instigated that whole mess but people don't remember the exact quote just the paraphrasing of it.

Enzo wrote:I talked to a lot of people about the election, it still comes up. I hear two complaints about Hillary. "She lied". No more specification than that, and ignoring that Trump made up lies from whole cloth daily. The other complaint was "Benghazi." No explanation,. they usually had no idea what ever occurred there, but "Benghazi" was sufficient.


She did lie. See the Bosnia sniper thing that's not the only thing either. The offensive thing there was that when caught out she tried to pass it off by questioning the integrity of the people calling her out. This is a thing with her too. When pressed she will shift blame on someone to take the heat off herself regardless of whether they had a role or not. That's a bad character flaw. Mind you Trump does that regularly but he's so damned stupid he spins that as something to be proud of and people fall for it.
r.e. Benghazi, there was enough issues there to say she really fucked that up. Her responses to questioning appear valid only to those who have already decided to give her a pass on the issue. The lack of communication with the ambassador who she hand picked to be in a country that was in a state of revolution. She couldn't recall a single time she actually communicated with him by voice. She dismissed his security concerns in emails to the state department as him being a funny guy. The serious lack of communications in a country she not long before claimed "we came we saw, he died" laughing, referring to Gaddafi. Who the hell laughs at killing a foreign leader? That's the realm of sociopaths.
It was ultimately found that Ambassador Stevens didn't even have a direct email address to Hillary. Yet she had given her direct email out to far less important people in less dangerous situations. Her response was that she handled over 250 Ambassadors in different countries. That shows complete incompetence in the ability to handle prioritization as well as begging the question, did she handle the rest the same way as the embassy in Libya. If so, claiming control of a bunch of ambassadors is pretty damned easy when you don't actually deal with them at all. More spin and bs typical of the political machine people are sick of dealing with.
Did you hear how she used to brag that she would be sent into countries too dangerous to send the then President (Bill)? Turns out that was a complete fabrication too. What kind of President would willingly send his wife and child to countries too dangerous for him to go to. Bragging about some achievement that is completely false loses trust in the peoples eyes. Except those who are willing to ignore it because they have already come to their "correct" conclusion.

This is what I have been hearing from people who are Republicans and Democrats well before the election. Many who had actual dealings in the White house, one particularly high up. Yes, I verified that they did. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place as they hated both Trump and Hillary. Most would have voted for Sanders (even the Republicans) instead of Trump. I also heard others who thought Trump says the right things. wtf?

Now I'm just relaying what I heard. There were also some real nut jobs that would believe anything about the Clintons but there were also plenty that had legitimate concerns as above. One who was black refused to have anything to do with the Clintons because of the "super predetor" issue and that the Clintons are solely responsible for the mass incarceration of black people. The USA incarcerates more people than any other country in the world and that is disproportionately black. This was due to a policy shift by the Clintons. I know people can claim Bill was responsible. Sure he signed the paperwork but anyone that thinks Hillary wasn't pushing for this or has no influence with Bill or vice versa is just deluding themselves.

So yes there are some crazies out there who just listen to the nutty stuff. There are also a hell of a lot of people that legitimately would refuse to vote for another Clinton in the White House. Simplifying it to just the former misses the picture.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Мастер wrote:Same question - was this belief influential? Did it change people's votes?

Yes. Of three people I know who voted for Trump, one did so because he honestly believed Trump was the better choice but two did so specifically citing the things I've brought up. They said had it not been for those issues they'd have voted for her. So 2/3 in my very small sample but definite proof that the disinformation and misinformation changed some peoples' minds. And remember, the margins in the swing states that Trump won were small. It didn't take much.

Мастер wrote:There were persistent rumours about Obama being born in Kenya, or some variation thereof. As nearly as I can tell, these rumours do not have the slightest basis in fact, but a lot of people at least suspected that they were true.

That was started by Trump, after Obama was elected. It never really had a chance to alter the outcome.

FZR1KG wrote:She did lie.

She lied, he lied, everybody lied. They all lie. But relatively speaking, she has a far better record of being truthful than most of the rest of them. http://www.politifact.com/personalities ... y-clinton/
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:25 pm

I didn't want to get dragged into a discussion of the Hillary specifics. My point was that the average soul I talked to offered "lies" as their reason, with no particulars of what the lies might be. Same with "Benghazi", they offered "Benghazi" as if the word in itself was an explanation. When pressed, they had only the vaguest idea what happened there, other than it was part of her "lies".

And to repeat myself, Lies was a major focus of the anti_hillary efforts by Trump supporters, while ignoring that a hallmark of the Trump campaign was new eggregious lies EVERY DAY.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Lance » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:32 pm

One of the gentlemen I spoke of above cited the scene in the movie 13 Hours where Hillary ordered the withdrawal of forces that were on their way to help in Benghazi. Even though the producers of the movie said that part was fictionalized and there was never any evidence or claim that anything even remotely close to that ever happened. That, specifically, was the deal breaker for him.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby FZR1KG » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:37 pm

Pretty sure we can all agree that Trump is the biggest liar. Not sure about him being the biggest asshole as their are a lot of contenders in his administration but he's right up there with them.
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