The Old Fox?

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The Old Fox?

Postby Lianachan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:30 pm

In 1747, Simon Fraser, 11th Lord Lovat was beheaded for his part in the Jacobite uprising. He was then buried at the Tower of London.

Or was he.....

His family and clan have maintained that his body was snuck away and is actually buried in the Wardlaw Mausoleum. In October 2017, Professor Dame Sue Black examined the remains that are claimed to be his. Her findings are to be announced tonight, in a blaze of publicity and television cameras. Lovat is an important character in insulting shitfest Outlander, so there's a lot of interest from twats. Speaking of twats, Dan Fucking Snow is firmly embedded in all of this too of course. I've seen the coffin in the mausoleum (14 miles from my house), which I visited last year, and have an interest in this. Plus, of course, he's an important and interesting actual real historical character - and I'd love the old story about his body being moved to be true. I sort of know Sue Black, through her involvement with Rosemarkie Man, but she ain't giving anything away until tonight. I'll be there, in a packed out event in Inverness to hear what she has to say. Either way, there's going to be a media circus around it all and it will be all over the Scottish news tomorrow.
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Heid the Ba » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:19 pm

Good stuff, I'll look out for you on the telly. Oh, and fuck Dan Snow.
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Lianachan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:32 pm

Heid the Ba wrote:Good stuff, I'll look out for you on the telly. Oh, and fuck Dan Snow.


If I get the chance, I'll boot him one in the clackers for you.
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Heid the Ba » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:35 pm

Excellent, I'm sure I can find a good lawyer to represent you.
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Lance » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:24 pm

:glp-s62:
No trees were killed in the posting of this message.
However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Lianachan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:04 pm

Strange night. Sue Black and her colleague were very comprehensive, and great speakers as usual, but there was a lot of shameless self promotion and bullshit from Dan Fucking Snow, and a surprisingly interesting (though also self promoting) contribution by an author who talked about something that I’ve only ever heard myself talking about before.

Anyway, was it himself in the coffin?
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Heid the Ba » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:01 am

Lianachan wrote:Strange night. Sue Black and her colleague were very comprehensive, and great speakers as usual,

Excellent

but there was a lot of shameless self promotion and bullshit from Dan Fucking Snow,

To be expected. I assuming since you're posting there was no chack kicking and subsequent arrest.

and a surprisingly interesting (though also self promoting) contribution by an author who talked about something that I’ve only ever heard myself talking about before.

You can't just leave this hanging, enquiring minds want to know.

As a comparator: yesterday I was involved in an online discussion about why some CofE vicars wore moustaches in the early C20th. So nothing is too obscure to confess to.


That throws up more questions than it answers.
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Lianachan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:53 am

Heid the Ba wrote:
but there was a lot of shameless self promotion and bullshit from Dan Fucking Snow,

To be expected. I assuming since you're posting there was no chack kicking and subsequent arrest.


He wasn't there! He appeared, talking shite of course, looming over us on a couple of big screens. His entire motivation seems to be to have been seen to be associated with the project. I wonder if he would have turned up if the remains had indeed been those of Lovat.

Heid the Ba wrote:
and a surprisingly interesting (though also self promoting) contribution by an author who talked about something that I’ve only ever heard myself talking about before.

You can't just leave this hanging, enquiring minds want to know.

As a comparator: yesterday I was involved in an online discussion about why some CofE vicars wore moustaches in the early C20th. So nothing is too obscure to confess to.


Ha, excellent! It was just that there are a lot of forgotten victims in the Highlands, that there's a lot said about the atrocities carried out by the British empire abroad but almost nothing about what it did here to what in theory were it's own British people and that most people don't even know it went on. I talk about it a bit when I'm doing my guided walks of 18thC military stuff for the archaeological society.

Heid the Ba wrote:

That throws up more questions than it answers.


It does indeed. There was some criticism of Sue for stopping abruptly with an "oh, it's just some woman" sort of shrug, but the research question she was to answer was "are these the remains of Lord Lovat", so she's done that. Some of the Outlander twats in the audience were asking if any of the other bones in the coffin (bones from 5 individuals found) could have been his, even though she'd already explained how they'd ended up in there. Basically clutching at straws. Other folk asking if the surviving wood from the coffin could tell us anything, to which she said it wasn't her field and she didn't know. The answer by the way is yes, likely the date, age and origin of the wood depending on it's condition, but that doesn't necessarily tell you anything about who's in it - or indeed the coffin itself, which could have been made in Edinburgh from timber imported 20 years earlier from Norway then sat unused in an undertaker for 30 years before being sold, sent north and used to bury a local Inverness woman, for example. What about isotope analysis to tell us where she came from? You need teeth for that, and this wifey is missing her skull..... It's interesting to speculate, though. Did the folk that were there to collect the body in London, and there really were people there to do that, realise when they were unable to get Lord Lovat that it's a sealed coffin and they could get away with taking just anybody back and say it's him? Where is her skull? Removed by a souvenir hunter who believed the plaque on the coffin that said Lovat was inside? Did somebody that knew it wasn't really Lovat look at the body and think "he's no supposed tae huv a heid" and hoof it away? It's all interesting, so I hope the research continues. Minus Dan Snow, of course.
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Heid the Ba » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:29 am

Lianachan wrote:He wasn't there! He appeared, talking shite of course, looming over us on a couple of big screens. His entire motivation seems to be to have been seen to be associated with the project. I wonder if he would have turned up if the remains had indeed been those of Lovat.

Oh he would have been up like a shot.

Ha, excellent! It was just that there are a lot of forgotten victims in the Highlands, that there's a lot said about the atrocities carried out by the British empire abroad but almost nothing about what it did here to what in theory were it's own British people and that most people don't even know it went on. I talk about it a bit when I'm doing my guided walks of 18thC military stuff for the archaeological society.

I must admit I know it happened but know very little of the details. Even though my lot were probably the doers rather than the doees.

It does indeed. There was some criticism of Sue for stopping abruptly with an "oh, it's just some woman" sort of shrug, . . .

Yep, that sounds like most of the questions I had. Yer wummin answered the question, if people want another question answered then they will have to fund her for another six months and accept the answer will be "fuck knows".
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Re: The Old Fox?

Postby Lianachan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am

Heid the Ba wrote:
Ha, excellent! It was just that there are a lot of forgotten victims in the Highlands, that there's a lot said about the atrocities carried out by the British empire abroad but almost nothing about what it did here to what in theory were it's own British people and that most people don't even know it went on. I talk about it a bit when I'm doing my guided walks of 18thC military stuff for the archaeological society.

I must admit I know it happened but know very little of the details. Even though my lot were probably the doers rather than the doees.


Ah, but you're m'learned colleague and an historian (albeit, as I understand it, not of that place or period). Joe Sixpack doesn't know about it. He wasn't told about it in school, and he's never seen anything about it on the telly or in his newspapers. When mentioned at all, it tends to get grossly oversimplified into "they banned tartan", as if that's the extent of the assault on the Highland culture and people. The massacring of the wounded on the battlefield is quite widely known, and that's also used as a smokescreen to hide the much wider extent of the British retribution.

Heid the Ba wrote:
It does indeed. There was some criticism of Sue for stopping abruptly with an "oh, it's just some woman" sort of shrug, . . .

Yep, that sounds like most of the questions I had. Yer wummin answered the question, if people want another question answered then they will have to fund her for another six months and accept the answer will be "fuck knows".


She didn't state it outright, but she gave the impression that further answers may be pretty elusive. It's certainly now outwith her expertise, which she was very clear about. I can see another potential archaeological project on the horizon.....
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