new and improved

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new and improved

Postby Bill_Thompson » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:16 pm

How can something be both new and improved at the same time?
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Postby Lonewulf » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:34 pm

Easy. It means that you made something different, *and* better. Just like something could be "New and Unimproved!" Which is perfectly possible; new product, but it does pretty much the same thing in a different way.
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Postby Lance » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:44 pm

Goggling "new and improved", hit number three:

The New and Improved SETI

Somehow I find this humorous.
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Re: new and improved

Postby Мастер » Sun Mar 12, 2006 10:56 pm

Bill_Thompson wrote:How can something be both new and improved at the same time?


That's a good point, I never thought about that before :)
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Postby Halcyon Dayz, FCD » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:15 pm

It is marketing speak.
Doesn't have to mean anything.
Just sound good.
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Postby Lance » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:20 pm

Well, lets look at a particular type of product:

First there was the corn cob. It was cheap, plentiful and did a decent job.

Then, along came toilet paper...

This new product performed an old task in an improved way.

FLASH: New Toilet Paper provides Improved Cleaning!

New and Improved.

Works for me.
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Postby Мастер » Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:22 pm

Lance wrote:Well, lets look at a particular type of product:

First there was the corn cob. It was cheap, plentiful and did a decent job.

Then, along came toilet paper...

This new product performed an old task in an improved way.

FLASH: New Toilet Paper provides Improved Cleaning!

New and Improved.

Works for me.


Well, sure, but you have to do this awkward context shift during the "and"...
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:00 am

Lonewulf wrote:Easy. It means that you made something different, *and* better. Just like something could be "New and Unimproved!" Which is perfectly possible; new product, but it does pretty much the same thing in a different way.


Improved implies an alteration on an existing item and thus not new.
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Postby Lance » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:13 am

Is the phrase still used much?
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:42 am

Halcyon Dayz wrote:It is marketing speak.
Doesn't have to mean anything.
Just sound good.


I think so too.
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Postby Lonewulf » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:30 am

Bill_Thompson wrote:Improved implies an alteration on an existing item and thus not new.


What if I invented an OS that was entirely like Windows, only better? But it was named differently? New and Improved. It sure isn't Old and Improved, and neither is it Stays Same and Improved.

Either way, doesn't really matter to me. It's two adjectives put together to talk about a product. Big whoop. The basic meaning is that it's something new, and it's an improved version of the old thing. I get what it means, and it's context.
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:14 am

Lonewulf wrote:
Bill_Thompson wrote:Improved implies an alteration on an existing item and thus not new.


What if I invented an OS that was entirely like Windows, only better? But it was named differently? New and Improved.


Windows 95 was just a suped up version of DOS. You could actually see the autoexe.bat file run if you knew the way to make the command line entries appear on the screen. This was still DOS. It was called "improved" it was not called new because it was not entirely new. Some features were knew but specifically it was called that way in "having new features" the OS itself was improved but not new.

Windows NT was a departure and a back-to-the-drawing board OS because it was truly new from the ground up. It was not DOS at all. The fact that it was a windowing environment did not matter because the code was new. It was a true multitasking OS and did not run at all like windows 95 or DOS. It was new. It was not improved.

Things are either new or they are improved. They cannot be both.

Lonewulf wrote:Easy. It means that you made something different, *and* better. Just like something could be "New and Unimproved!" Which is perfectly possible; new product, but it does pretty much the same thing in a different way.


Different, new, improved and better are not the same words and it is bad logic to try to swap them out like this. If something is different it is not often better, new, or improved. If somethign is new it is not always better. For instance, your hypothalamus is newer than mine. :lol:
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Postby Lance » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:17 am

Bill_Thompson wrote:Things are either new or they are improved. They cannot be both.

Did you miss my toilet paper example?
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:20 am

Lance wrote:
Bill_Thompson wrote:Things are either new or they are improved. They cannot be both.

Did you miss my toilet paper example?

Khrushchev's Other Shoe did not.
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Postby Lance » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:22 am

Bill_Thompson wrote:
Lance wrote:
Bill_Thompson wrote:Things are either new or they are improved. They cannot be both.

Did you miss my toilet paper example?

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Yeah, so? It still disproves your point.
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:25 am

Lance wrote:
Bill_Thompson wrote:
Lance wrote:
Bill_Thompson wrote:Things are either new or they are improved. They cannot be both.

Did you miss my toilet paper example?

Khrushchev's Other Shoe

Yeah, so? It still disproves your point.


No, Lance, an improved way or task is not an improved item. It is a new item, not an improved one.

Putting it in grammatical terms: If something is done in an improved way than the word "improved" is an adverb describing a verb -- an action. An item that is improved is a noun and the word "improved" is an adjective.

Lance wrote:FLASH: New Toilet Paper provides Improved Cleaning!

New and Improved.

Works for me.


You are a brave man to admit that. You have courage. I will give you that.
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Postby Lance » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:32 am

Bill_Thompson wrote:No, Lance, an improved way or task is not an improved item. It is a new item, not an improved one.

This is a classic "Bill Thompson dosn't understand simple concepts" issue like we've been discussing in PMs so much.

What exactly is it that you don't understand here? Is it the word "new"?

Here:
a : beginning as the resumption or repetition of a previous act or thing <a new day> <the new edition>
b : made or become fresh <awoke a new person>

In any of those definitions, that which is new may also be an improvement on that which came before.

Don't let your narrow understand of a simple word prevent you from understanding the broader concept. Do you get it now?
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:34 am

IMPROVE and IMPROVEMENT are two different words.

The toilet paper is new. If it replaces an old item, it is still new. The toilet paper itself is not improved.

I know that you are employing fuzzy logic to this. Just becuse something improves the way you do something does not make that thing improved. The question was this:

"How can something be both new and improved at the same time"

The question was not:

"How can something be both new and do things in an improved way at the same time"

My car is new. It improves the way that I get to work. The car is an IMPROVEMENT. But the car is not IMPROVED.
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Postby Lance » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:41 am

Bill_Thompson wrote:The toilet paper itself is not improved.

But what it does, is.
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:46 am

Lance wrote:
Bill_Thompson wrote:The toilet paper itself is not improved.

But what it does, is.


A verb is not a noun.
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Postby Мастер » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:17 pm

Too much analysis here. It is just a small irony to be appreciated, if some don't find it humorous that's fine, but do you really want to argue about this?
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Postby Lance » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:55 pm

Khrushchev's Other Shoe wrote:Too much analysis here. It is just a small irony to be appreciated, if some don't find it humorous that's fine, but do you really want to argue about this?

Yeah, you're right.

Everyone but Bill gets it anyways, and we all know he refuses to learn new and improved ideas so it's not worth it.

We win!
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Postby Мастер » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:35 pm

Lance wrote:Yeah, you're right.

Everyone but Bill gets it anyways, and we all know he refuses to learn new and improved ideas so it's not worth it.

We win!


Well, I'm going to have to come out and say I appreciate the irony in the combination...
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Postby Bill_Thompson » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:22 pm

Lance wrote:
Khrushchev's Other Shoe wrote:Too much analysis here. It is just a small irony to be appreciated, if some don't find it humorous that's fine, but do you really want to argue about this?

Yeah, you're right.

Everyone but Bill gets it anyways, and we all know he refuses to learn new and improved ideas so it's not worth it.

We win!


No, Lance, you are switching the subject matter in mid-sentance. With the toilet paper example either you are talking about the item or you are talking about the act of wiping.

If you are talking about the toilet paper, it is a new item.

If you are talking about the act it performs, it is an improvement.

You only think you win because you either choose to ignore this or you somehow don't get it.
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Postby Halcyon Dayz, FCD » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:56 pm

Bill_Thompson wrote:You only think you win because you either choose to ignore this or you somehow don't get it.

Bill Thompson, par excellence. :wink:
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