Ignoranti-R-Us

[Enzo]

We-B-Stupid

In a Roper poll for NAtional Geographic, yet again eveidence we are raising a generation of dolts. Ages 18-24 think, or don't hink...

Even though we have been hearing about Katrina for a long time, 1/3 of these young folk could not locate Louisiana on a map of the USA.

And 48% could not locate Mississippi

And though our soldiers are losing their lives over there every day, 60% of the kids could not locate Iraq in a map.

Only 3 in 10 even think it matters that we know anything about geography.

We cry about outsourcing jobs to India, but 47% couldn't find India on a map of Asia.

A whopping 75% couldn't find Israel on a map of the middle east.

And a similar 3/4 of them think English is the most widely spoken native language on earth.

6 in ten couldn't guess that the most heavily armed border in the world is between North and South Korea. 33% thought it was the one between the US and Mexico.


None of this is a surprise, we hear similar poll results all the time. I know it to be true from my own pools.

Just to be playful, whenever i encounter an "Information" counter, I like to go ask them a question. Likewise, when restaurant server offers to answer "any questions," I take them up on it. The question I ask is always, "What is the capital of Nebraska?" They never know. In the last twenty years, exactly three people have actually answered it. Darn few even try Omaha, let alone guess right.

I can do this in restaurants, shopping malls, the bank, doesn't matter. I can do it on University campuses where you'd think they had been educated, but they fare no better.

And it doesn't matter what I ask, they won't know. One woman had no clue about Nebraska, so I said how about Ohio? Still didn't know. So I asked, "What is the capital of Michigan?" She thought for a second and offered, "Lansing?" Right she was, an especially difficult question since we were IN Lansing at the time.

They are expecially bad at geography, but they suck at most anything else, history, math, science.

I am reminded of a scene in "Welcome Back, Kotter" where teacher Kotter asks Vinnie Barbarino (John Travolta) "Hey Vinnie, what did we learn in class today?" Vinnie replies, "I don't know, what?"

ANd here in Michigan, the current requirement for a HS diploma is one class in civics. That is it, anything else is elective. Ther is currently an effirt to upgrade the requirement to include some math, a little science, some English, the basics. ANd they ar fighting tooth and nail to defeat the effort. Students don;t like it because they wouldn't be able to coast. They offfer objections like they wouldn't be able to study the wide range of things they do now. Gee, you'd only have two elective periods a day instead of seven. Movie appreciation might have to go. One teacher proclaimed that woodshop was an important class because it trained kids for important job skills. You bet, I still have a candy bowl I made decades ago. I could be making bowls for a living. How do you compute board feet without math? How would you figure profit or loss without math. Gonna write a convincing business proposal or a business plan for the bank with no English skills? And local control is the buzz word. If the state makes us teach our kids anything, then it wasn't us in charge. We demand the right to leave our children in ignorance.

It gives me a headache wondering where the nation is going.

[spoiler]By the way, Lincoln is the capital of Nebraska.[/spoiler]

[pmcolt]

Does it make me ignorant, or just stupid, if I refuse to believe that our nation's youth could be anywhere close to being as uneducated as the poll suggests?

(Then again, I'm right inside that age group. And I do suck at math. And I can locate the states and countries on a map, but it's been a long time since state capitals in 2nd grade. Ah, crap. )

[Lonewulf]

Does it make me ignorant, or just stupid, if I refuse to believe that our nation's youth could be anywhere close to being as uneducated as the poll suggests?

(Then again, I'm right inside that age group. And I do suck at math. And I can locate the states and countries on a map, but it's been a long time since state capitals in 2nd grade. Ah, crap. )

I don't think that our nation is that uneducated. I mean, there's over a thousand countries out there, and knowing every single one (and their capitals) is a lesson in incredible memorization.

Also, you have to consider that going up to some random person on the street and asking them questions -- they're probably not in the best state of mind. I mean, first of all, they have a camera and microphone put into their face (not shoved, though) -- they're surprised and not reacting perfectly, and they may "brain fart" far more in that situation.

Second of all, asking them to point to a map and find something on it -- once more, brain farting, and having to look at the map. And if they don't find it (or answer a question) RIGHT AWAY, they must be lacking in education.

Eh, I could go more into it, but I still think that we have way too high of expectations sometimes.

[Мастер]

I mean, there's over a thousand countries out there, and knowing every single one (and their capitals) is a lesson in incredible memorization.

That must be the case, as you know at least 800 of them of which I am wholly unaware...

Also, you have to consider that going up to some random person on the street and asking them questions -- they're probably not in the best state of mind. I mean, first of all, they have a camera and microphone put into their face (not shoved, though) -- they're surprised and not reacting perfectly, and they may "brain fart" far more in that situation.

It is also quite likely that what we see is the result of careful editing of many interviews.

[Lonewulf]

I mean, there's over a thousand countries out there, and knowing every single one (and their capitals) is a lesson in incredible memorization.

That must be the case, as you know at least 800 of them of which I am wholly unaware...

And that's because there's really only about 192 countries.

I said I was geographically challenged...

[pmcolt]

It is also quite likely that what we see is the result of careful editing of many interviews.

I can see that happening for one of those comedy "people off the street are idiots" videos, but for a Roper poll?

And go easy on Lonewulf; he probably got the countries confused with those hundreds of state capitals we all had to memorize in grade school. :wink:

[Мастер]

I can see that happening for one of those comedy "people off the street are idiots" videos, but for a Roper poll?

You are right, I temporarily mixed up this thread with another one.

And go easy on Lonewulf; he probably got the countries confused with those hundreds of state capitals we all had to memorize in grade school. :wink:

Ooh, you are evil. I like that

[Мастер]

And that's because there's really only about 192 countries.

If I have my facts straight, there are 191 members of the UN, plus the Vatican, which won't join. Then there are various quasi-countries, which won't or can't join the UN, such as Taiwan, Northen Cyprus, the Palestinian Authority (although whether the latter is in control of any territory at all is subject to some doubt), two break-away regions in Georgia, one in Moldova, Somaliland, Western Sahara, etc.

[Lonewulf]

If I have my facts straight, there are 191 members of the UN, plus the Vatican, which won't join. Then there are various quasi-countries, which won't or can't join the UN, such as Taiwan, Northen Cyprus, the Palestinian Authority (although whether the latter is in control of any territory at all is subject to some doubt), two break-away regions in Georgia, one in Moldova, Somaliland, Western Sahara, etc.

It's amazing what google can do. I knew some of that stuff before you even posted it.

Can you and PM Colt get off my back, please? If you want to call me an idiot, then do so.

[MM_Dandy]

When my Dad went through school, it was generally expected that not only did you have to know states and their capitals, but also to have an idea of who their people of office were. In his time, you would have been considered ignorant if you couldn't name their governors, senators, or representatives of at least the states in the five state region (SD, ND, MN, IA, NE).

I can definitely say that that is not the case now, nor when I was in school. In fact, I have a hard time remembering who the Lt. Governor is.

I'm just curious, though, Enzo, why Nebraska?

[spoiler]BTW, the current Lt. Gov. of SD is Dennis Daugaard. And yes, I had to look it up [/spoiler]

[Мастер]

If I have my facts straight, there are 191 members of the UN, plus the Vatican, which won't join. Then there are various quasi-countries, which won't or can't join the UN, such as Taiwan, Northen Cyprus, the Palestinian Authority (although whether the latter is in control of any territory at all is subject to some doubt), two break-away regions in Georgia, one in Moldova, Somaliland, Western Sahara, etc.

It's amazing what google can do. I knew some of that stuff before you even posted it.

Now now, just because you have to Google this information doesn't mean I have to...

Can you and PM Colt get off my back, please?

Didn't realize I was on your back, but I'll revert to my usual attitude. I know how you abhor being on other people's backs...

If you want to call me an idiot, then do so.

Thanks for the offer, but if I do that you'll probably talk about your IQ again...

[Lonewulf]

Now now, just because you have to Google this information doesn't mean I have to...

Part of knowledge is finding out the facts and remembering them for future reference.

That's what I did.

Apparently, you look down upon that behavior. Dunno why.

Didn't realize I was on your back, but I'll revert to my usual attitude. I know how you abhor being on other people's backs...

Cute. Real cute. Name a single fucking person that I've been "on the back of" that wasn't trying to cling onto other's backs.

Thanks for the offer, but if I do that you'll probably talk about your IQ again...

I only did that as it was in responce to one of Thompson's tactics of appearing superior to others. I was using it against him.

[Мастер]

Lonewulf, why don't you take a break and come back when you're not so upset.

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf, why don't you take a break and come back when you're not so upset.

Don't need to. By you saying this, you explain that you weren't really that serious, and I'm taking it too seriously. Which is probably the truth. I calm down quickly sometimes.

And I felt so stupid for saying there were a thousand countries. So sue me.

[Ikyoto]

I teach post-high school. Strictly those who have graduated and are entering the job market and need skills they were not offered in a traditional high school.

Those figures are actually rather accurate. It's a fact that the standards for qualifying for a diploma have DROPPED.

Lonewulf, as a teacher who encounters it every day, I can give you a very glaring example:

To get into my class, all students must take a pass two tests - basic math and basic reading comp. Both of these are from a set of tests I found in the school archives from 1980.

The mean average for the class in both subjects is a 6.5 grade level - and these are people who GRADUATED high school in the last 4 years or have gotten a GED!

[hippietrekx]

Hey, Enzo, in order to graduate in Michigan, we kids currently need a civics class and a physical education class. Don't forget the gym! Wiffle ball will surely serve us well in the future.

About the new standards, as a kid, it's not about the laziness. In our school we wind up getting all of the kids through with most of what the new requirements will need (if passed) because we don't have all of the crap electives because we're so small. What I don't like is the abrubptness of the change. I think there should be a few years of getting from only the two gradutaion requirments to an intermediate number (like those two, two math classes, two english, a technology class, etc.). Then, as botht he school systems and the kids have adjusted to that change (maybe 2-3 years) we move up to the full requiremens (4 English, 4 math, 3 social studies, yada yada yada).

Also, the new bill dosen't make exceptions for special education students. The bill calls for ALL students to make math up to a level of Algebra 2 (I took this my sophomore year, about 1/5 of the kids only take it here). I just fear that Algebra 2 and other classes will be "dumbed down" just to get all of the kids through. How's that going to help kids like me? I'm in pre-calculus now, and I'm going crazy because it's pathetically easy. I always feel so bored in almost all of my classes because apparently I'm "advanced." Damn it, it's too late for me to skip a grade now, and mom didn't want me to graduate when I'm 16. (I'm already graduating at 17.)

Stupid schools...

--hippie

[Enzo]

When I first started this project, I just picked Nebraska because it was out in the middle. And not too terribly far away. And there are not that many large cities in Nebraska to confuse the kids. If I want a tough one, I give them Vermont. But in the interest of science, I always start with Nebraska to be consistent. But it doesn't matter, capital of Nebraska, Vermont, Brazil, Canada, Australia, they won't know. Try it.

You can posit that I am springing it on them and they freeze, but I can carry on a conversation for an extended period if they are willing and not busy, and they don't warm up and get better, they remain ignorant.

Sure the Jay Leno stuff is edited, but believe me he has no shortage of examples to edit from. But the poll is no exageration. I see it all around me every day. I hear "them are" so often I want to scream. Ask them anything. Did dinosaurs live at the same time as people? How many continents are there? (If they want to name Europe and Asia separate or as one, give it to them, as long as they can name them.) SHow them an unlabelled map and ask them to point out a country, or point one out and ask them to name it. They can't. Easy stuff like France or Brazil. Or a map of the USA - can they come within 200 miles of pointing to the location of NY, LA, DC, or any other letters city? No.

How many degrees in a triangle? Sorry. Where do we get bacon? How long does it take for the earth to orbit the sun one full time? Don't know. WHo's buried in Grant's Tomb? When was the war of 1812? Yes, they miss that one too.

hippie, if your school requires gym, I think it is a local requirement. AS far as I know, the state only asks for the one class.

I have to disagree on the abruptness thing. Obviously if someone is going into the senior year having had none of the classes, they can't be expected to cram four years worth into one. I believe the standards are applied to those entering school, not leaving it. Maybe that is what you mean. But I see no reason to wait. if you are taking math and English already, all this means is that now it matters, now it counts. I don't know what waiting achieves. SOme poor schmuck who intended to take basket weaving will now have to take something substantive instead. Oh well, school wasn't meant to be day care.

hippie, you're smart, and you're motivated, these new standards won't affect you at all. I took algebra and calculus in high school, but we also had tracks through school that didn't go nearly as far. In fact there was a whole track through school called "distributive education." Fancy words. Distributive Ed was training to work in retail. One step up from Home Ec.

There are always exceptions and special cases. And if they are not adequately covered at the outset, that is no reason not to have standards that make sense in general. But think about what the standards mean. A diploma is to mean you know certain minimal things. If a special ed student doesn't learn those things, he won't get a diploma. The diploma is supposed to mean something, it is not just a pat on the back for attending school for four years, which is what it has become. Doesn't mean the slow learner gets zero education, he just cant get the diploma that someone who completes all the courses does. There would be special certificates of completion. One of the largest complaints colleges have is that HS graduates arrive at the college and have to take multiple remedial courses just to get up to where they should have already been when they got there. Colleges expect a diploma to mean something. We should make it so.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

Montpelier? (EDIT: Check 8) )

Here (in the Netherlands) we have a very diverse education system.
At least six types of school on secondary level, some of which issue
diplomas in several levels.
All these different diplomas give access to different types of follow-up.
From beautician to rocket scientist, so to speak.

[St. Jimmy]

This might sound a bit woo-wooish but I believe this anyways:

I think school are starting to be run more and more like a business. Think about it, schools don't care if you're stupid or not, if you fail a class because you don't get it they still keep you in that higher level class just so the number of students in those higher level classes are better. That way more new students come to the school in hopes that one of those new students is either really smart or really good at athletics. If a student is really smart in school, who always tries to take all the credit for that? The school! Same with Athletics too. The school tries to take credit for its students' accomplishments so it seems like a good school, and new students come.
The main reasons for wanting more students in the school:
1)More students brings more money from the state.
2)If those new student are really smart, the school will take credit for that and look good attracting mor new students.
3)If a student is good at athletics, The school will take credit attracting more new students, AND people from the area will want to go to the athletics events, so the school will charge for entry to those events which brings more money to the school.
4)The higher number of sutdents there are in the school the more new students it will attract.

It's like students are another form of money to schools. School are run like a business, just like everything else nowadays. And needless to say, It sucks.

-St. Jimmy

[Lonewulf]

That's not woo-ish, that's just general paranoia. Everyone has that.

(Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quotes aside...)

I agree with schools running as a business, especially high schools.

[Мастер]

This might sound a bit woo-wooish but I believe this anyways:

I think school are starting to be run more and more like a business. Think about it, schools don't care if you're stupid or not, if you fail a class because you don't get it they still keep you in that higher level class just so the number of students in those higher level classes are better. That way more new students come to the school in hopes that one of those new students is either really smart or really good at athletics. If a student is really smart in school, who always tries to take all the credit for that? The school! Same with Athletics too. The school tries to take credit for its students' accomplishments so it seems like a good school, and new students come.
The main reasons for wanting more students in the school:
1)More students brings more money from the state.
2)If those new student are really smart, the school will take credit for that and look good attracting mor new students.
3)If a student is good at athletics, The school will take credit attracting more new students, AND people from the area will want to go to the athletics events, so the school will charge for entry to those events which brings more money to the school.
4)The higher number of sutdents there are in the school the more new students it will attract.

It's like students are another form of money to schools. School are run like a business, just like everything else nowadays. And needless to say, It sucks.

-St. Jimmy

Well, the system is different in different places, so I don't know that we can really generalize, but it's not surprising that school administrators would respond to the incentives they are offered. If you want to change the behavior, change the incentives. Of course, this requires basing policy on realistic analysis of how people actually behave, rather than on wishful thinking, so it is universally unpopular...

[Мастер]

Montpelier? (EDIT: Check 8) )

Correct. And here is the only part of Montpelier I've ever seen...

[Enzo]

AS timely as today's paper:

[Lonewulf]

Can I bet updated if she ever answers his question? I'm rather curious myself.

Yes, I'm kidding.