Racist crap from my youth

[Enzo]

Growing up in the Maryland/ Washington DC area I was exposed to a certain level of racism, but back when it was a part of the culture. I do remember things like the white line on the floor of the bus towards the rear, and two drinking fountains side by side - the nice chilled one wais "Whites Only" over it, and the plain tap water out fo a spiggot in the white porcelain one was for "everyone." Signs over doors of businesses that said "Whites Only."

But I was recently thinking about cartoons such as Heckyl and Jeckyl, and Bosco, and other mildly racist things we didn't give a second thought to. I wonder what others remember, if anything, of that sort of endemic racism.

Certainly could tune in Disney on a SUnday evening and watch Song of the South, with Uncle Remus telling tales of Brer Rabit and Brer Bear, and the Tar Baby. DOn't see that one no more.

And Little Black Sambo. He was chased by tigers around a tree until they all melted into butter. Sambo then collected the butter and ate it on stacks of pancakes. Ain't seen Sambo in a while.

For that matter, until about 30 years ago there was a national restaurant chain called Sambo's. It was like a Denny's, except not quite as good - if you can imagine that. The menu was different, instead of grouping the offerings by something like meat, fish, salad, etc. it grouped them by price. Here were the $3.99 meals, there were the $4.99 meals, and so on.

Sambo's even made some mileage reaturing images from the Sambo kids book I mentioned, thoug over time they changed him from a little black boy to a little Indian boy. But by the late 70s, it was too much and they were hassled from all sides. They tried changing the name of the places to Sam's or something, but the chain crumbled and faded away.

And why exactly did Davy Crockett just shoot all the Indians he saw?

ANyone else remember some of that stuff?

[Blue Monster 65]

Sarah loved the book Little Black Sambo as a child. Recently re-reading it, though, she asked me, "So who was the idiot that decided Indians were black and why the hell were they eating pancakes?"

Yep ... strangeness indeed ...

Woof! - Scott

[KLA2]

Never saw such signs in Toronto, where I grew up. I do remember my grandfather telling me when he first immigrated to Canada, he saw signs in shop windows “Help wanted. No Irishmen need apply.” At some point, almost all cultures and ethnicities have felt the sting of racism.

Little Black Sambo (which I remember) is an interesting case. What sticks in my mind is that this young boy outwitted four tigers out to eat him, (tricked them into running around a tree until they turned to butter) and fed his village (or family?) on the butter.

Made him look smart, brave and generous. When the story was read to me, that was my impression. As best I can recall. The illustrations, on the other hand, were less than flattering – but were cartoons. There are many children’s books where people of various races are depicted in a manner not flattering – but probably without racist malice.

The name – Little Black Sambo – does sound racist 100+ years after it was written. There were specific derogatory words the author could have used instead, but did not. Would he have written of “Little White Sven” (and the polar bears?) Probably not. But (I assume) that he wrote this story primarily for white children, perhaps never realizing it would be illustrated.

I agree that this book is overdue for retirement – but not with extreme prejudice.

Song of the South – same perception. It never occurred to me as a child that there was a negative racist theme – in fact, Brer Rabbit (who in retrospect was probably “black”) was constantly outwitting Brer Fox (who was probably “white”) Or maybe they were just a rabbit and a fox?

What concerns me far more is that libraries and school boards are banning books like Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, and even To Kill a Mockingbird (!!!) because of racial depictions and use of the “N” word. Political correctness gone insane. (As Bill Thompson said, perhaps ”We are not going to make it” {quote “I mean, I give up completely in convincing anyone into thinking for a moment logically about anything.”})

I don’t give up, but I sometimes despair.

Heck of a topic, Enzo. Be great if some posters who have experienced prejudice, particularly those who grew up in the 50's and 60's, weighed in on this. Lurkers, here is your chance!
:D

[Blue Monster 65]

Right - as a child, one doesn't think about such things. Unfortunately, as we age, we learn such drivel and, even if we don't think in such terms, we know that others will judge based upon such.

We have a copy of both the book and the Disney film of Songs of the South. The cartoon bits are great! The live action parts still tell a pretty good story (the old guy teaches the young boy how to be brave and crafty), but the fact that most see this as a racist film makes me rather hesitant to show the whole thing to my kids. I still love Brer Rabbit, tho!

Woof! - Scott

[Enzo]

I never thought of Sambo as written with malice. The point is that it was written in a time when it was completely OK to use minorities as figures per se. One wonders why he was Black Sambo instead of Sambo indeed.

I certainly don't want to see fine old literature like Huck Finn banned from a library anywhere, but it says volumes about the culture that we would refer to the character as Nigger Jim instead of Jim... and think nothing of it.

I note KLA2 that you like to focus on the positive messages. That is fine. Far better that Sambo took advantage of the serendipitous butter than to have stolen it. But if a black person rescues a young child from a burning barn, we don't really want to reward him by saying what a GOOD nigger he is.

And who would be fooled into thinking a tar baby was a real child? White people?

Just in yesterday's paper, a photo of Central High in Little Rock. It has been 50 years. I remember all that going down.

[Superluminal]

I remember little Sambo, but I thought he was from India. After all, we didn't have any tigers around here. I was a little skeptical, how could tigers turn into butter just by running around a tree?

I vaguely remember seeing bathrooms for whites only.

We bought one of those $1 cartoon disks at Wally World a couple of months back. It had cartoons from the 40s or 50's, Buggs Bunny and Superman. One of the Buggs Bunny cartoons had characters in black face. But the faces had been blurred out. The Superman cartoon had people smoking cigarettes. Can you imagine a kids cartoon with people smoking today?

I also remember when ever some one would say something positive about a black person, there would almost always be a qualifier: "Joe's pretty smart, for a n***r." or "she's nice looking, for a n***r". We've come along way since then.

When I was little I didn't realize that there was any other word to use for blacks except the N word. Once after using the word too close to some blacks, I was about 5, my older sister pulled me aside and explained the N word to me and that we shouldn't use it around them because it was offensive. After that I never used the N word, even around white kids. One day in class the teacher was out of the room for a minute. One of the class bullies came over and bumped my desk, and asked, "How come you never say n***r?" We've come along way, but still have along way to go.

[KLA2]

Enzo wrote
I never thought of Sambo as written with malice. The point is that it was written in a time when it was completely OK to use minorities as figures per se. One wonders why he was Black Sambo instead of Sambo indeed.

I certainly don't want to see fine old literature like Huck Finn banned from a library anywhere, but it says volumes about the culture that we would refer to the character as Nigger Jim instead of Jim... and think nothing of it.

Enzo ... "Mark Twain" was employing vicious satire when he wrote that ... you know this. WTF??

I note KLA2 that you like to focus on the positive messages. That is fine. Far better that Sambo took advantage of the serendipitous butter than to have stolen it. But if a black person rescues a young child from a burning barn, we don't really want to reward him by saying what a GOOD nigger he is.

??? Enzo, wow, when bad posts happen to good (well intentioned) people?

And who would be fooled into thinking a tar baby was a real child? White people?

A wonderful allegory that I sometimes use. Without ANY racist intent. Sometimes tar is just tar. :wink:

Just in yesterday's paper, a photo of Central High in Little Rock. It has been 50 years. I remember all that going down.

Yes. I recall it was JFK/RFK who (finally, reluctantly) sent in the National Guard to enforce laws that (in principle) had been in force for 100 years.
Just imagine the courage of those high school students.

[Superluminal]

No, it was Arkansas gov., and Bill Clinton mentor, Orval Faubus who sent in the Arkansas National Guard. It was Pres. Eisenhower who federalized the guard and sent in the 101st Airborne to escort the CH9 into the school. They had a ceremony today, the 50th anniversary, members of the modern day 101st escort the CH9, all nine are still living, to the ceremony.

[Enzo]

Ah... we're all friends here...

Tar is indeed tar. But the reason tar babies would have ever worked - in a literary sense - was that they would look like a black child since they would be tar color. We lifted the idea and it became detached from its roots.

And Mark Twain was a genius, but the unwashed masses didn't think anything of using such terms, which was the thrust of my presentation. There were plenty of concerned and compasionate folks even back then, but society in general didn't think twice about slinging the N word at people.

??? Enzo, wow, when bad posts happen to good (well intentioned) people?

Not really sure what you are saying, but I mean no offense and have no hostilty. Just pointing out that we seem to be looking at different things in the ssibject matter.


And yes, Little Rock in 1957 was a little before RFK. George Wallace and others came a bit later.

Yes, "he's a good guy... for a N..." ALL the time. And the other common disclaimer, "Oh there are some really nice ones, but..." WHy can't they stick to their own kind? What if your sister married one? (Mine did.)

All these varied examples and anecdotes amplify the same thing, society thought it was perfectly OK.

I remember a big deal in local sports - I grew up in Washington DC. When Bobby Mitchell joined the Washington Redskins - and there lies a whole other racism issue, "Redskins" - he was the first black player on the team. And this was 1962! Believe me it was controversial. And that was 15 years after baseball had integrated. And Washington DC had a majority black population by a substantial margin.

I remember when integration hit the fan - I think I have mentioned this one - it was a huge deal. In grade school we used to chant:

2-4-6-8
We don't want to integrate
5-4-3-2
We don't want a Jiggy-boo

Thought it was perfectly OK.


it wasn't until well into adulthood that I read the original US constitution and realized the founding fathers put it right in there in writing that Indians and Slaves were only 3/4 of a person. (They since have removed that little part.)

When I was growing up, it was only about 90 years after the Civil War, and in the Maryland/Virginia part of the world, there were still a lot of wounded feelings passing down through the generations.

[KLA2]

No, it was Arkansas gov., and Bill Clinton mentor, Orval Faubus who sent in the Arkansas National Guard. It was Pres. Eisenhower who federalized the guard and sent in the 101st Airborne to escort the CH9 into the school. They had a ceremony today, the 50th anniversary, members of the modern day 101st escort the CH9, all nine are still living, to the ceremony.

Yes, I read that this morning in an article in the Toronto Star. 1957. Don't know what I was thinking. That's what happens when I go by memory.

[KLA2]

Ah... we're all friends here...

Yes. We are on the same team, Enzo. I despise racism and all its trappings. My discussion was on whether certain books or images promote negative stereotypes. I guess I have to concede that "Sambo" did in covert, if not overt, ways. {Sigh}. Too bad. I never saw it that way.

As for Mark Twain, I assume we are in agreement as to his motives.

Tar is indeed tar. But the reason tar babies would have ever worked - in a literary sense - was that they would look like a black child since they would be tar color. We lifted the idea and it became detached from its roots.

I do get your point. I guess I will have to re-read the story. Don't even remember which character made the tar baby - just remember that Brer Rabbit tricked Brer Fox into touching it, and the harder he struggled to get free, the more stuck he became.
Hmmm, so basically I am argueing from a position of ignorance. I don't really remember the stories, but Iliked them as a kid and didn't see any racism in them, so I am defending them. I'll shut up now. At least until I have time to re-read them. 8)

Not really sure what you are saying, but I mean no offense and have no hostilty. Just pointing out that we seem to be looking at different things in the ssibject matter.

Bad choice of words on my part. That paragraph, about stealing and burning barns, sounded angry and not quite in the context of the discussion of the books. Re-reading it, I think I get the connection. No offence intended. :D

Great post, Enzo, but touchy ... :wink:

[KLA2]

Enzo, Superluminal and others, a bit of perspective.

As a child, I grew up in the suburbs of Toronto, Canada.

There is a ferry boat that carries passengers on Lake Ontario between the city of Toronto on the mainland and a large island just offshore (Centre Island). A pleasant day trip for a family.

When I was about 4 or 5 years old (1950’s) on a summer’s day, my parents and I were on that boat. Seated across from me was a black man. I had never seen a black person. I observed him with wonder for a while.

With the innocence of a child, I loudly asked him “ What happened to you, Mister? Were you burned in a fire?”

Probably, the only reason I remember this event are the reactions and responses of horror and mortification that emanated from my parents. (Who were not racist).

He looked at me warily, assessed the situation for what it was, and replied warmly (something like) “No, son. That’s just the colour of my skin.”

Had he not been so understanding, I guess he could have left a big emotional scar. (Or tossed me overboard) :wink:

Wish I knew who he was. Would like to shake his hand.

Much of Canada (when I was a kid) was a little different than much of the U.S.

It wasn’t until high school (grade 9 to 13) that I went to school with any black students. There were two. Plus a Phis Ed teacher. In a school of … well … over a thousand students. As far as I know, they were treated the same as everyone else. By me, anyway. There was no school segregation. This was just … demographics.

(Of course, they were way too cool to associate with me. I dressed “square”, disdained athletics, was president of the chess club and a member of the library club. And read a lot of books. Not Mr. Popular!)

Not saying that systemic racism did not exist in Canada. Just that many of my generation in Canada were not affected by it to the extent others elsewhere were. That affects my perception of books and things. I was not as “sensitized” to certain concepts.

[KLA2]

KLA2 wrote

I do get your point. I guess I will have to re-read the story. Don't even remember which character made the tar baby - just remember that Brer Rabbit tricked Brer Fox into touching it, and the harder he struggled to get free, the more stuck he became.

And I'm even wrong on that.
http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm

Shit. Shit shit shit. Shit.

Sorry, last time (maybe) I shoot my mouth off without researching. Shit.

But the underlying concept was that Brer Rabbit outwitted Brer Fox. I remember laughing at this story as a kid. And later reading it to my little sisters, who also laughed. Ah, well.

And I STILL don't see it as racist. :P Just a wonderful folk tale, in the style of Aesop.

[Heid the Ba]

From the Onion but all too true of some sports commentators.

[KLA2]

Not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this, but don't want to start a new thread just for this. And, I guess it is all interconnected.

I posted the lyrics to ‘Black Day in July” by Gordon Lightfoot on the thread ‘Band, Name or Verse” (“Baba O’Reilly”) This reminded me of a story.

My uncle G was sent to Japan in the early 60’s by the US based company he worked for and did not return until 1967 or 68. Just arrived back in the US and very familiar with Detroit, he was walking a familiar street downtown after dark. Suddenly, he noticed something strange.

He was the only person on foot. The once bustling streets were empty. There was little or no traffic.

Uncle G was a big man, 6’6 and well over 200 pounds. He stepped into the middle of the street, and walked quickly back to his hotel.

He said that was the only time in his life he felt afraid.

[Enzo]

Detroit scares the crap out of me, I don't like to get any closer than Brighton. That's like not getting closer to Windsor than Chattam.