Pure Capitalism?

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Postby Мастер » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:54 pm

Ah, Halcyon Dayz, FCD made all the same points, but he did it more succinctly :P
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Postby KLA2 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:15 pm

tubeswell wrote:Is anything pure?


Yes. Ivory Soap is 99 44/100% pure. Nothing else. :evil:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... -pure-what

What in the name of jumping jehosephats does any of this have to do with burning Qu'rans? Or religion?

Mods, mods. {Blows whistle}. :evil:

:lol:
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Postby Halcyon Dayz, FCD » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:55 pm

Arneb wrote:Halcyon Dayz, I get this nagging feeling that your screen title may not be totally appropriate.

I AM a Snarling Rabid Green-Communist Big-Government Tree-Hugger Euroweasel™, and proud of it dagnabbit!
(If you don't take the Commie bit too literal.)

I'm also not a cloudcuckoolander.
Actual working solutions to the multitude of problems and injustices that plague the modern world don't grow on trees.
And I'm sure most of them will cost a shitload of money.

Mactep wrote:Ah, Halcyon Dayz, FCD made all the same points, but he did it more succinctly :P

Thank you, thank you...
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It rots the mind and blackens the heart.
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Postby tubeswell » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:36 pm

Halcyon Dayz, FCD wrote:
tubeswell wrote:Maybe all workers should have equal access to machinery and other types of facilities used in production as employers. Then employers could do more of their own work if they want to make something. I like artisan based businesses - the people are friendlier.

The question remains, who's going to pay for all that stuff? (The machinery and facilities that is.)

Also, without industrial mass production as it's backbone the world economy couldn't possibly feed 7 billion people, let alone keep them in fineries.
Artisan based production is a luxury only the most productive nations can afford.
It's post-industrial.


This was a fanciful thought on my part, not a suggested solution. I know very well what drives the engine room of the global economy, I worked in the private sector of it until it drove me to hospital in the back of an ambulance for the 3rd time - then I decided enough is enough, and I'm going to get an easier job, which with the benefit of education I had obtained from being born and raised in a wealthy country, I had the privilege of access to. Others are not so lucky. It still doesn't mean the overarching system is ideal, and I myself said at the start of this post, no-one has come up with a better system. If somebody had, we would all be doing that right now already.


Halcyon Dayz, FCD wrote:
tubeswell wrote:So the conditions of workers is generally improving-to-rosy is it?. Tell that to people in the third world who have to dig through scrap heaps for a living.

Don't knock it. That's basically what I do for a living.
It's called recycling.
People always have made a living extraction valuable resources from stuff other people throw away.
When I was a little kid there still was a guy doing the rounds with an horse-drawn cart to collect potato-peelings for pigs-feed.
That's just not cost-effective anymore.
(Potato peels now become compost or bio-gas.)

The safety and health conditions of workers in the 3rd world suck, as does their pay.
But those are still better then 200 years ago.


Well that's good for you, I'm pleased you recycle. I do to, and so do my kids.

One unfortunate consequence of our wealthy condition, is that we have over-borrowed on the environmental and ecosystemic capital of future generations, in order to sustain the over-consumptive lifestyle we enjoy. This situation can't last forever. It all very well saying future generations will have to deal with it, or that somebody will invent some new wonder that will solve everything in the future. Those things are not as certain as increasing CO2 levels in the atmosphere.

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/sio-nzd.html

Halcyon Dayz, FCD wrote:
tubeswell wrote:The reason conditions in Japan, UK, Europe, North America, Australia and New Zealand are better than they were 200 years ago, is that the people in these countries are riding on surpluses extracted from people in much poorer areas that they have created dependencies of.

That is not the reason conditions are better, that is the reason they are better then they otherwise would be.
Which is still a lot better then 1800.

The main reason workers in the industrialised world are so much better off is because their productivity has increased by several orders of magnitude.

If you want to achieve global socio-economic justice don't go around knocking industrial production and the free markets.
Those are the engines that produce the wealth that will allows us to afford it in he first place.


I am not convinced that conditions are 'better' than they were in 1800. Economic, social and environmental conditions may certainly different than there were, but is this better?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Paci ... bage_Patch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill

and that's just for starters
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Postby tubeswell » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:00 pm

Mactep wrote:
tubeswell wrote:I guess Marx was fond of conspiracy and hated cartels


How do you feel about that?


Ambivalent. Monopolies might be alright if they were efficiently run and everyone was open, honest and caring. But how realistic is that? Human nature only seems to display altruism on relatively infrequent occasions.

Mactep wrote:
tubeswell wrote:and attempt (through lobbying their political allies) to do so at every available opportunity by undermining work conditions.


Absolutely, and labour groups have counter-lobbies. How has the relative power of these two groups been changing over time? How about the wages themselves?


Maybe its different in the US (or the UK?), but here, some complacency seems to conspire against the organisers of labour unions. Real wages keep declining over time AFAICT (which is Irish for 'a faict' ;-) ).


Mactep wrote:
tubeswell wrote:Since you obviously have the answer at your fingertips, perhaps you would like to share the beneficence of your wisdom freely in this regard?


The answer to what? The causes of inflation, or how to make the world a better place? I have more to say about one of those than the other, and have in fact been discussing one of them. It's been pretty well received, wouldn't you say?


I was asking about your reference to contradictions in Marx's theories. Its been about 25 years since I sat in a lecture theatre. I was wondering if you would elaborate on it a bit more please, so that I might perhaps remember a bit more myself. :-)

(I intend to get back to you on the other stuff about development and underdevelopment. I have some more old texts sitting on my book shelf in that regard. It may take me a wee while.)


Mactep wrote:
tubeswell wrote:(I will leave on one side the pending discussion of what is all this 1st world over-consumption doing to the planet's finite resources).


I think that is an extremely important issue, but it doesn't have much to do with inflation.


On the contrary, I think production, consumption, profit/surplus, exploitation and inflation go hand in hand. The need to extract a surplus has driven population growth to where it far exceeds global environmental carrying capacity. The quest for profit is such a powerful mantra that this pattern of overconsumption would appear destined to continue until the world consumes itself, and in the process, more and more of the world's population will experience greater and greater deprivation.
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Postby tubeswell » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:04 pm

KLA2 wrote:
tubeswell wrote:Is anything pure?


Yes. Ivory Soap is 99 44/100% pure. Nothing else. :evil:



According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_%28soap%29 new varieties of Ivory Soap have palm oil ingredients, just like Dove - reminds me of a comic strip that appeared in the Dominion Post (local rag) a little while ago

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 1803d14397

(Edit - I can't I get the stupid image to display in the post?)

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Re: Pure Capitalism?

Postby KLA2 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:24 pm

MM_Dandy wrote:============================
MODERATOR'S NOTE:
This and the subsequent 15 posts were split
from the Qu'ran burning thread.

As far as I could tell, this post is the best candidate
to serve as the OP for this thread. As such, a copy of
this post still exists in the Qu-ran Burning thread, while
the subsequent related posts have been removed.

If anyone would like to see their posts moved or copied,
just let me or any other moderator know.
tubeswell, if you'd like a different title for this
thread, feel free to edit this post or notify a moderator.

Have a nice day!
--MM_Dandy

PS: Please bear with me as I seem to have misplaced
the original Qu'ran Burning thread
.
I will make all
attempts to have it restored as soon as possible.
============================


:glp-1rof1: Right. We keep the hijacking part, and lose the legitimate thread. :glp-chris18:

[strike]Mods! Mods! [/strike] Admins! Admins! :lol:

{Hey, it's cool, MM_Dandy. If it's gone, it's gone. Along with my Poultry Prize.} :lol:

Don't spend any more time on it than the five minutes it deserves! :wink:
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Re: Pure Capitalism?

Postby MM_Dandy » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:24 pm

KLA2 wrote:PS: Please bear with me as I seem to have misplaced
the original Qu'ran Burning thread
.
I will make all
attempts to have it restored as soon as possible.
============================[/color]

:glp-1rof1: Right. We keep the hijacking part, and lose the legitimate thread. :glp-chris18:

[strike]Mods! Mods! [/strike] Admins! Admins! :lol:

{Hey, it's cool, MM_Dandy. If it's gone, it's gone. Along with my Poultry Prize.} :lol:

Don't spend any more time on it than the five minutes it deserves! :wink:


I'm glad you're not terribly upset, because it does seem to have been lost for good (although, on the internet, I have no idea how that can actually happen). I am sorry to you and to all who participated, it was a good little discussion.
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Postby KLA2 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:38 am

...it was a good little discussion.

Thanks, MM_Dandy. Having you say that takes the sting :glp-whip: out of losing it. :glp-sigh:

:wink: :lol:
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Postby tubeswell » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:51 pm

I'm sorry the modder deleted your post too KLA2. As I recall, you were talking about inciteful religious dogma, and that got me going about marxism. I guess there is a common thread after all.
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