My harpy wife...

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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:11 am

Yes, but Vodka is an ingredient. If you mix it with something it becomes part of something else.

Just like ground beef is an ingredient in a hamburger, but it is not the only ingredient. The possible ingredients in a hamburger are many and varied. Heck, there are even hamburgers that don't include ground beef at all but are still hamburgers.

So with all due respect, I stand by my last post.

Now if we were talking "ground beef patties" instead of "hamburgers" then I would agree with you.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:07 pm

I guess it depends upon your standards. I don't consider a "veggie burger" for example to be a "hamburger". If "hamburger" to you means a flat portion of something brown on a bun, then OK. To me one can say "turkey burger" as descriptive, but it is not a hamburger. Nothing against a turkey patty sandwich, it just isn't a hamburger.

I think I see it in reverse from you. To me hamburger is the specific, while ground beef patty is the one that can contain other stuff - as in the salisbury steak example.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:02 pm

I was in McDonald's recently, trying to order one of their new designer custom built things. They have a couple different options for buns, beef or chicken, and other options. I gave my order and specified all the options, concluding with "burger". The order taker then asked "beef or chicken?" I replied "burger" and again was asked to specify the type of meat.

So burgers are different things to different people, but if you look up "burger recipes" on-line, you will be hard pressed to find recipes calling for nothing but ground beef.

Any good bar burger around here is made with seasoned meat, and no two are the same. So if I add salt and pepper, and maybe a couple of other herbs and spices to the meat, is that a burger to you? Or did those additions cross the line?

ETA: And I'm not basing my opinion on my own beliefs of what is or is not a burger. I am relying on the common and customary interpretations of the terms in my local area. Your region could be completely different than mine.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby g-one » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:05 pm

There is also a generational aspect of the term. My mom used to speak of 'pick up some hamburger' at the store. I'm sure the label would have read 'ground' something (beef or chuck) but she was referring to it in the sense of an ingredient. I would think that usage is fading but I'm not sure.
Then there is the "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" usage for the sandwich.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:17 pm

Good points. Hamburger Helper immediately came to mind when I read that.

I had a hamburger for lunch today from a place we generally get breakfast at. It had sliced green olives on it. FAR better than I expected.

Enzo wrote:To me one can say "turkey burger" as descriptive, but it is not a hamburger.

Yes, I can completely agree with that. Which is why I always insist my hamburgers are made from nothing but 100% pure ground ham.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:39 pm

Like anything, context matters. There is hamburger the ingredient, which refers to ground beef. Then there is "a hamburger" which refers to the dish. That would refer to a ground beef patty on a bread bun. We then get into usages. I refer to facial tissue as Kleenex, regardless of brand. That is an informal usage many of us use, though it is incorrect.

It all gets perverted in common usage. Just as anything served in a stem glass these days is a something-tini. For instance, an appletini is vodka and apple cider, but they serve it in a martini glass, so it becomes a "tini". Likewise we have perverted hamburger - the dish - into a something-burger when it is not made of beef. Turkeyburger, lamburger, veggieburger. I suppose if you made a patty of ground ham, you could indeed call it a ham-burger, but I'd object to hamburger. In names like turkeyburger, they are portmanteau words that are self-descriptive. In those cases "burger" has come to mean a patty, so anything you make a patty of can be put in a sandwich and combine the item with burger into an item-burger. As ingredients I never see "turkey hamburger", I see "ground turkey". SImilar with lamb or bison or other meats.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:21 am

Yeah, I can agree with all of that. So for the purposes of this conversation, let's limit ourselves to the ground beef based patty usually served on a bun. Oh, and I do certainly agree that a hamburger is in fact a ground beef based patty, in case that was ever in question.

But I really was curious about your answer to the question:

Lance wrote:Any good bar burger around here is made with seasoned meat, and no two are the same. So if I add salt and pepper, and maybe a couple of other herbs and spices to the meat, is that a burger to you? Or did those additions cross the line?
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby wring » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:00 am

I think he's ok w/salt/pepper added and still calling it a hamburger. I suspect that even if you stuffed some cheese in the middle of the burger, he'd still be ok about it being called a hamburger. But where his line is ( I think and I'd agree) is when you start adding things like raw egg and bread crumbs into the burger mixture before cooking it - IOW, essentially preparing a meat loaf or meatball then simply patting it out into a patty and calling it a burger. Just like a salmon patty wouldn't be called a salmon burger.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:12 am

Yes, salt and pepper, and herbs and spices are certainly ingredients in the sense of list of ingredients on a package. But in terms of a recipe, I think of those as seasonings rather than ingredients per se. So you can salt and pepper your patty to your heart's content.

A "cheeseburger" does not mean ground cheese, though we all like to get good grille marks on our cheese... (Inside joke with the wife) If you put a slab of cheese in or on your hamburger, it becomes a cheeseburger. You can adorn your sandwich with a slice of onion and some lettuce, or even grilled onions. They don't alter the basic structure of the thing. Not exactly sure where it lies, but there is a line we cross in adding things internally to the patty that makes it no longer a hamburger, as tasty as the result may be.

Of course as many standards as I may invent, there will always be a bar menu or newspaper recipe that violates it. I have to live with that.

The wife and I like this little family restaurant in Owosso called BJ's. Got to love a place called BJs. One of the things they often have as daily special is salmon patties, with peas in cream sauce. We both usually order that. If someone called it a salmon burger, I would know what they meant, but we would never call a salmon patty a burger.

To me the bun is just a handle so you can pick it up without gripping the greasy meat. But I am not a fan of excess bun. I often tear off excess bits of bun when they extend past the meat. One sandwich I really like is a patty melt. Pretty standard fare, it is a hamburger patty on grilled bread rather than a bun. Usually with grilled onions on the patty. A slice of swiss is common in there. And the bread is traditionally rye, though I usually ask for wheat. Not a fan of caraway seeds myself. It is listed under hamburgers on the menu, but I never call it a burger. But I guess it does meet my standards for one mostly. I think a hamburger must be on a bun to be official.

Applebees has a "quesadilla burger" - a burger patty in between a couple tortillas. The ultimate minimalist "bun".
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:48 am

Okay, I see where you're coming from. I guess I'm just more tolerant of what you can put in a burger and still call it a burger. For me, if it is ground beef based, flat, and on a bun, I don't care what else is in it. It's still a burger to me. But that's me...

I love a good patty melt! Around here they generally come on marble rye, which has no caraway seeds. :)

So I was Googling to find something I saw the other day that I wanted to mention. I didn't find it again but I stumbled across something I think you'll love: The Classic Burger.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:50 am

Yes, that sounds delicious, I just would call it a salisbury steak or a meatloaf. That recipe looks a lot like my meatballs. When I order a burger in a bar or restaurant, I order the tomato and lettuce on the side. Tomato in the sandwich to me just makes it drippier, and also tends to help crumble/sog the bun or make the bun want to slide off.

For meatballs or meatloaf instead of bread crumbs, I often crush Rice Chex cereal. The wife uses panko.

I am supposed to watch my sodium, I take one bite of my pickle spear, and the wife eats the rest. So I watch her eat my sodium.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:57 pm

Enzo wrote:Yes, that sounds delicious, I just would call it a salisbury steak or a meatloaf.

The only issues I have with that are that to me, a salisbury steak sits on the plate without a bun, and covered with gravy. And a meatloaf is shaped like a loaf of bread. So maybe we just need a new name for these "ingredient laden, hamburger inspired patties". Hmmm, Ingredient Laden, Hamburger Inspired Patties... Ilhips?
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby g-one » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:46 pm

One that gets me is 'bunwich'.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby wring » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:52 pm

Enzo wrote:
For meatballs or meatloaf instead of bread crumbs, I often crush Rice Chex cereal. The wife uses panko.


to be fair, I use a combination of steel cut oats and panko. I've honed it over the years, used to use torn up break, switched to oatmeal, then steel cut oatmeal then combo w/panko. I also add a dab of applesauce (doesn't affect the flavor, but helps keep it moist), plus other more normal ingredients (like salt, pepper, powdered mustard, paprika, ketchup, eggs, chopped onions). We still have left over meatloaf in the frig, was gonna nuke some up for lunchy breakfast, but currently Enzo is dangling the possibility of going out to eat. Of course if he continues to dangle like that, anything could happen.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:47 pm

Almost 5 hours later now. How did the angle of the dangle end up?
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:53 pm

After four hours one should seek professional attention, so we went to Dan's Diner in Lansing. I had a patty melt. And in fact I forgot to specify wheat and got rye with caraway seeds, oh well. The wife had an olive-burger. Which for people from elsewhere means a hamburger with a pile of olive sauce on the top. Basically chopped up green olives in mayonnaise, a big scoop of them.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby wring » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:05 am

We also had competing fries - his were French, mine were sweet potato.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby g-one » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:34 am

I want this olive sauce. Never heard of it. Do they sell it or do you have to make it?

edit: I see it's a Michigan thing. I found the Lansing City Pulse article "We olive a good burger". :=D:
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:39 am

I had a burger yesterday with sliced green olives on it. I'd never had one like it before but it was great! I think mixed in mayo would be even better. I may try to go for that on Sunday or Monday.

Damn it! I just finished left-over Olive Garden from lunch and now I'm hungry again.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby wring » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:06 am

yeah, olive burgers are either ya love 'em, or think "gross". Olive sauce is merely mayo + chopped green olives.

messy but yummy.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:43 am

I love olives but I was surprised how good they were on the burger. And I'm a mayo fan anyway.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:34 am

Yes, I am a mayo on burger guy, not ketchup or mustard for me. If I have sauted onions, I can forgo the mayo. The mayo is a lubricant, but then so are the cooked onions. I like just a thin film of mayo, not the giant globs of it the restaurants put on. It squirts out into my mustache.

I never heard of an olive burger until I came to Michigan. But there are various recipes online for it. But really, sliced olives - the dumb green ones from a jar - in mayo. And typically, a big scoop of it, not just a schmear. If you like olives on a burger, and mayo too, you ought to like olive burgers.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Lance » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:56 am

If you're feeling adventurous one day, try mayo and cinnamon. Yeah, cinnamon. It's far better than you might think.

I find it safer to get the mayo on the side. I can use the right amount without getting a face full of it and then have the rest to dip fries in. Bonus!

I'm most definitely going to try the olive burger. I would today if I didn't have something else going on for lunch but tomorrow for sure. I'll probably have to mash the olives with the back of a fork and mix them in the mayo myself. Will that be a good consistency?

I spent most of my life despising sauted onions for no real reason. But I like patty melts. Go figure. Then a few years ago I realized the onions might be okay on other burgers too and tried them a few times. As I suspected, I regretted my lifetime of sauted onions-less-ness. But now they're so new to my repertoire that I hardly ever remember to get them. I wonder how they'd be on the Olive Burger. Hmmm.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby wring » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:57 pm

Lance wrote: I'll probably have to mash the olives with the back of a fork and mix them in the mayo myself. Will that be a good consistency?


I've made my own sauce by chopping up olives and mixing it w/mayo, it's the same as when I go out. The idea of adding grilled onions to it doesn't appeal to me, tho' for some reason, but hey, it's your burger.
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Re: My harpy wife...

Postby Enzo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:03 pm

You can buy jars of already sliced olives. Drain those and toss into mayo. et voila. Mashing them wouldn't be the texture I'd go for, but the taste should be the same.
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