Improve the breed

[Enzo]

Been watching more Star Trek lately. The original series is getting old on me, I really only want to see maybe half of them. The Next generation wears better for me. Don't care for DS9, if nothing else, the ludicrous Ferengi characters are too much. VOyager, meh. Capt Janeway is a whisperer, one of those actors who whisper their lines to seem dramatic. I never saw much Enterprise when it was on, so they are new to me now, I like them better than many, though the weekly cliffhanger gets tiring.

Now I know it is cheaper than real effects, but apparently in their universe, all aliens are humans with lumps on their heads. How about an alien like the hidden appearance of the good guy aliens in Galaxy Quest?

But aside from that, it seems that most species can cross pollinate, as it were. SPock was a Human/VUlcan cross. Troi was Betazoid/Human. There are Klingon/Humans, Cardassians and others. Humans crossed with a bunch of them. It seems odd to me that so many disparate species could cross-breed.

Here on earth, we can cross a horse and a donkey to make a mule. I know there are rare lion/tiger crosses. Some species that COULD cross, just don't. I guess speciation is a matter of will as well as can. So I got to wondering, just how far afield can we go and still result in a fertilized cell? Obviously there are physical impediments for a"natural" impregnation. But even in vitro, would human sperm join with an egg from say and Orca? A Saint Bernard? A duck. I would expect few to result in something that came to term. A Human/Orang cross or a Human/Chimp cross. Others might fertilize and egg wwhich would implant but soon fail.

Clearly a human/cauliflower cross wouldn;t work, I assume. But what limits this? Could a pig fertilize a sheep? I'd not bet against a successful weasel/mink for example. I suspect wolves, dogs, coyotes would be compatible.

To be clear, I mainly am thinking petri dish, not cabbages wagging their tails when I come home from work.

[Heid the Ba]

Is one of the broader definitions of "species" not that it is self contained in what it can breed with? So big cats are all one species, despite very different looks, as are dogs, wolves and coyotes? Which would men that if a Human and Vulcan can breed they must be the same species?

[Arneb]

That's true. Thks definition of species is not universal, as it does not work for the vast majority of life on Earth, which isn't even multicellular. But it's safe to assume that species with a last common ancestor that lived 6 My ago - like humans and apes - can't crossbreed. The mother's immune system quickly would take care of anything too exotic. Matter of fact, the mother's immune system needs to be suppressed in intricate ways to even tolerate something that is half her and half someone she would share an ancestor wirh only a few hundreds or thousands years in the past.

I don' think any experiments have been done to see how far a hybrid would get in vitro only. It doesn't lead anywhere.

There are a few obervations showing that the borders are really quite strict. There are toads in Northern California which originated from a species just South of the Golden Gate. They propagated counter lockwise around the Bay, subtly adapting and changing enough to merit subspecies names. Every sub is crossbreedable with its neighbours, but the subspecies from Marin County isnt' compatible with the original population any more.

[Lance]

I've seen a show about a hypothetical Humanzee; human/chimp hybrid. "They think" it may have happened naturally (ew) but can't prove anything.

[Enzo]

I am familiar with ring species. I think my first awareness of that came via Ernst Meyer.

I realize there is little to be gained by crossing a turnip and a frog, I was more interested in what prevents it succeeding. I had not considered the immune system.

[Lance]

I think one factor is the number of pairs of chromosomes. If there are a different number, they can't match up.

[Lianachan]

I've seen a show about a hypothetical Humanzee; human/chimp hybrid. "They think" it may have happened naturally (ew) but can't prove anything.

Spoiler:

[Arneb]

I pressed "Hide" as soon as I saw the solution.

Lance, I was sure you were right about the chromosomes being a total show-stopper, but the Wikipedia article on the humanzee says otherwise.

[Arneb]

I am familiar with ring species. I think my first awareness of that came via Ernst Meyer.

We got it from the same man .

[Lance]

Lance, I was sure you were right about the chromosomes being a total show-stopper, but the Wikipedia article on the humanzee says otherwise.

Interesting...

I'm sure there have been human/chimp matings in the wild. I wonder if a hybrid born in the wild would be recognized as very different and disposed of.

[wring]

I am familiar with ring species.

Hey - leave my family out of this!

[Enzo]

I mentioned no rhinos...


When you mentioned human/chimp I expected to see George W Bush under the spoiler.

Man, remember when we though HE was a whacko?

[Enzo]

So if it is only marginally possible for something as close as humans and chimps to fertilize, then it doesn't bode well for Klingons and humans, et al.

[Lance]

Well, maybe all the creatures on all the planets evolved to be what they are, except the dominant intelligent species which were all created by the same supreme being. And since they were all created in his image, they can all interbreed.

[Enzo]

God's chillun are inbreds?

[Lance]

Maybe.

[Arneb]

God's chillun are inbreds?

Well, we are descendants of the same two folks, so what are we if not inbreds?

[Arneb]

Well, maybe all the creatures on all the planets evolved to be what they are, except the dominant intelligent species which were all created by the same supreme being. And since they were all created in his image, they can all interbreed.

There is a TNG episode to that effect. They are following some hints to some extrarodinary discovery, then notice that the Klingons and Romulans are doing the same, unsuccessfully trying to wipe out any evidence for anyone following them. So after some to and fro they all meet up on some planet with an extinct civilisation where they are greeted by a hologram of a bald -headed pseudo human telling them they are all related because this species laid the genetic groundwork on all their planets for intelligent life to evolve and since they are all brethren now could they please liv in peace blabla kumbaya!

[Lance]

God's chillun are inbreds?

Well, we are descendants of the same two folks, so what are we if not inbreds?

There is DNA evidence for this: Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam. There is a slight overlap in the times they lived so it is possible but highly unlikely they knew each other.

[Lance]

Well, maybe all the creatures on all the planets evolved to be what they are, except the dominant intelligent species which were all created by the same supreme being. And since they were all created in his image, they can all interbreed.

There is a TNG episode to that effect. They are following some hints to some extrarodinary discovery, then notice that the Klingons and Romulans are doing the same, unsuccessfully trying to wipe out any evidence for anyone following them. So after some to and fro they all meet up on some planet with an extinct civilisation where they are greeted by a hologram of a bald -headed pseudo human telling them they are all related because this species laid the genetic groundwork on all their planets for intelligent life to evolve and since they are all brethren now could they please liv in peace blabla kumbaya!

And thought it was my original idea. Boo!

[Enzo]

highly unlikely they knew each other.

So all of humanity was the result of a one night stand?

[MM_Dandy]

I thought we were all descended from Genghis Khan. Though my memory is foggy, I seem to recall that there are a handful of bottlenecks in human lineage.