Audio/Home Theater

[Мастер]

This one is for Enzo or Blue Monster 65 :P

So, I am upgrading from the 1980s to the present. I have an HDTV now, satellite television service, and a Blu-ray player. These last two are connected to the HDTV via HDMI cables. There is also an old DVD/VCR combo unit, which I am keeping for its ability to play VHS tapes, since the Blu-ray player will play conventional DVDs. This DVD/VCR combo unit is connected to the HDTV through a component video cable, with separate audio. There is even a pair of rabbit ears, which are picking up local stations in high definition, which (when the weather isn't bad) looks a lot better than the same channels coming through the satellite system.

That's the video setup. There is also the audio setup, which consists of a cheap-ass Panasonic all-in-one unit, that plays CDs (but not MP3s, I think), cassette tapes, and AM/FM radio. This system comes with its own speakers, which I am not using at present - instead, I am using eight speakers built into the house, in four pairs in four different rooms (counting "outside" as a room). I believe three sets of speakers were previously used for this purpose; my suspicion is that the fourth set was part of a Surround Sound type system; they are directly opposite where the previous inmates had the television, the cabling to them is different than the other three pairs, and they don't have an in-wall volume control, the way the other three do. I have used all four as stereo pairs for audio porpoises - I got this little box where you can turn each pair on/off independently, and it shows the right impedance to the amplifier. There is a bit of a problem there, because the speakers that came with the Panasonic system are four-wire, as is the speaker output of the system (that is, four-wires for each speaker), but the in-house speakers are only two-wire interfaces. So I arbitrarily chose a pair of wires for each speaker, presumably leaving half the sound out :( There is also a Technics turntable, sitting unused, for want of a pre-amp (reference previous comments and Enzo's response somewhere).

So, it is time to upgrade. The idea now is to put in a system that will perform two functions - it will drive a Surround Sound system, and will also drive the remote speakers. It seems like the sources would be:

Surround Sound - broadcast (through the rabbit ears), satellite (HDMI output from the satellite receiver), Blu-ray (HDMI output from the Blu-ray player). I assume that VHS tapes do not support Surround Sound, but stereo (or mono) audio output would still need to be played somehow.

Remote speakers - CDs, MP3s, cassette tapes (yes, I still have some - no, I don't have an 8-track, in case anyone is wondering), phonograph, AM/FM radio. Also, it would be good to be able to play the audio associated with video sources (normal programming, but also the radio stations that come with satellite service) on the remote speakers.

Perhaps there are other sources I would like to support once I get set up, who knows.

So, I am looking at receivers from Denon and Onkyo, but I am open to other suggestions as well. As far as features go, here are the advantages/disadvantages of each:

HDMI inputs - Onkyo has three, Denon only has two. Two is my current number, but who knows what need in the future? I have some silly thought that I might eventually get a free satellite system in addition to the pay one (Ku band). Perhaps I would also pick up some multi-region Blu-ray/DVD player in Hong Kong sometime - I don't know if I can play disks from other regions on the current setup.

Remote speakers - both support a remote zone audio setup. The Onkyo can simultaneously drive a 7.1 system and provide a powered output to the remote speakers. The Denon can drive a 7.1 system, but is busted back to 5.1 if the programming on the remote speakers is different. Furthermore, the output for the remote speakers is line level, so this would require a separate amplifier. I haven't had much luck locating good information on where/what type of audio amplifier to get.

Phono input - Onkyo would require a separate pre-amp, Denon has a built-in photo input.

So, feature-wise, it seems like Onkyo pretty much has Denon beat, except for the phono input. But people are telling me Denon has been a high-quality leader in this field for many years, and Onkyo probably won't sound as good - they tell me serious sound comes out of Denon or Pioneer equipment, or higher-end custom-made stuff.

So I am not sure what to do. Any comments?

[Blue Monster 65]

Denon better than Onkyo? Hmmm ... that's news to me, but anyway ...

I'm not much of a "new" hifi guy, but my thinking here is that you're limiting yourself by looking at all-in-one systems, which I do not tend to like. Myself, I would look for:

1. Preamp. Again, a separate piece that will accept input from a variety of sources.

2. Amplifier. A separate piece that will power my speakers.

Where are you looking for your gear? Let me know that next, OK?

Scott

[Мастер]

Denon better than Onkyo? Hmmm ... that's news to me, but anyway ...

Well, this is what someone was telling me. I don't know myself. But another incident caused me to wonder whether the person telling me this is really well-informed, or if he is, let's say, "improvising" :P

I'm not much of a "new" hifi guy, but my thinking here is that you're limiting yourself by looking at all-in-one systems, which I do not tend to like. Myself, I would look for:

1. Preamp. Again, a separate piece that will accept input from a variety of sources.

2. Amplifier. A separate piece that will power my speakers.

Let me make sure I understand here. First, you are talking strictly about the audio (that is, the house stereo system), not the Surround Sound - correct?

One possibility is to have a totally separate system for the television/surround sound and the in-wall audio speakers. I thought about that, and decided there were two disadvantages, although I can only think of one now. And that is, there might be occasions when we would take audio associated with video sources (e.g., the audio track for a television program, or the "radio" stations that come in the satellite dish receiver) and pipe it out on the house speakers. So when Heid the Ba' and Arneb come over for the Euro 2010 final, they can listen to the game even in rooms where they can't watch it :P On the other hand, maybe separate audio outputs on the Blu-ray player or the satellite dish receiver could serve that purpose.

Another issue on the audio is that there may not be a reason to go super high quality, because I am using speakers that are already built-in to the walls, and I'm not sure that they're really high quality, expensive speakers. On the other hand, it might make sense to get additional speakers, then the sound will be high quality when it comes through the main speakers, and lower quality when it comes through the (I think) cheap-ass speakers built into the walls.

Second, although "preamp" suggests amplification, am I correct to assume its main function is actually selection of an input source? I think the only thing I have (or am likely to have) that actually requires preamplification is a turntable. So the main function of the preamp is actually to select which input (CD player, tape player, turntable, radio receiver, whatever) to send to the amplifier - is this correct? The purpose of the amplifier then is to take a single line level input, and provide enough power to drive speakers - also correct? So in this setup, we have various components which provide the content (the CD player, radio receiver, etc.), all feeding into a pre-amp, which amplifies the turntable input and also selects the input to send on the main amplifier, which does what its name suggests. Have I got it right there?

Where are you looking for your gear? Let me know that next, OK?

Scott

Well, so far, I've been to places like Circuit City and Amazon, but that isn't necessarily where I will buy the system. This is what got me thinking about a single system to perform both functions (drive the surround sound and the in-wall stereo speakers), because this is the sort of thing the stores had. But if a better solution can be found by shopping elsewhere, I'm open to that possibility.

Thanks for your help!

[Blue Monster 65]

(regarding Denon vs. Onkyo) Well, this is what someone was telling me. I don't know myself. But another incident caused me to wonder whether the person telling me this is really well-informed, or if he is, let's say, "improvising" :P

Yep! Sounds like an opinion to me, but I haven't kept up, so perhaps the quality of one or the other has suffered. I dunno!

Let me make sure I understand here. First, you are talking strictly about the audio (that is, the house stereo system), not the Surround Sound - correct?

Well, sort of! I believe - from my limited experience with such - that you can get an amplifier that will handle both duties for you. That is, it will not only power your house system, but have a secondary section for the Surround. I may be mistaken, though, but it seems I've seen one. If not, I would suggest one amp for the house and another for the surround.

... when Heid the Ba' and Arneb come over for the Euro 2010 final, they can listen to the game even in rooms where they can't watch it ...

I don't want to have to deal with that. :D

No, really, I don't think it would be that big a deal. Your surround should only be in the back and sides of the room, right? The mains can still handle the front, correct?

Another issue on the audio is that there may not be a reason to go super high quality, because I am using speakers that are already built-in to the walls, and I'm not sure that they're really high quality, expensive speakers. On the other hand, it might make sense to get additional speakers, then the sound will be high quality when it comes through the main speakers, and lower quality when it comes through the (I think) cheap-ass speakers built into the walls.

Don't assume what you don't know, OK? Not trying to be rude here, but often those in-wall speakers look cheap and are actually quite efficient.

Second, although "preamp" suggests amplification, am I correct to assume its main function is actually selection of an input source? I think the only thing I have (or am likely to have) that actually requires preamplification is a turntable. So the main function of the preamp is actually to select which input (CD player, tape player, turntable, radio receiver, whatever) to send to the amplifier - is this correct? The purpose of the amplifier then is to take a single line level input, and provide enough power to drive speakers - also correct? So in this setup, we have various components which provide the content (the CD player, radio receiver, etc.), all feeding into a pre-amp, which amplifies the turntable input and also selects the input to send on the main amplifier, which does what its name suggests. Have I got it right there?

Right! I've been calling this piece of the puzzle a preamp, but now the accepted term is receiver (which I identify with a radio receiver). Here's an excellent article that may explain all this much, much better than I: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... d=cat12077

Well, so far, I've been to places like Circuit City and Amazon, but that isn't necessarily where I will buy the system. This is what got me thinking about a single system to perform both functions (drive the surround sound and the in-wall stereo speakers), because this is the sort of thing the stores had. But if a better solution can be found by shopping elsewhere, I'm open to that possibility.

I would suggest you buy wherever you find the best service.

Thanks for your help!

You're very welcome! I hope I've helped and not made it worse. I'd like to know what you come up with - sounds like it could be a cool system and I'd especially like to know if we're successful in this discussion, OK?

Scott

[Enzo]

Without looking up the Best Buy link, to me a receiver is an amplifier with a tuner built in, while an amplifier is just the amplifier part. I never hear the term anymore, but they used to call the all in one amplifier (wuthout radio) an integrated amp if it could power speakers directly. It would be a combination power amp and preamp. You can also get what used to be called "component stereo" which meant each part of the system was a separate piece of gear. SO the preamp was the box with the volume and tone controls and the input selector. The power amp was the thing that conected to the speakers. A patch cord connected them together.

Scott and I don't mind messing with and configuring sound equipment. But I see noting wrong with one integrated piece of gear that does the whole job. Most OEMs make surround to the latest x.x level as part of their product, so it will drive the extra rear speakers.

Home stereo is music related. Now they often call it home theater, which means it is your stereo, but it also handles the video. This may or may not be of interest to you. If you have multiple video sources, it might be nice to have the audio and video switch with one selector.

I am not so up to date on consumer audio, so I don't know from HDMI standards.

As to Denon or Onkyo being superior, I am not so sure that is a large issue any more. Especially if you are not the type to sit in the exact spot in the listening area and straining to hear the exact sonic positioning of the third chair cello. These days even the cheap no-name stereos sound pretty good, they have to work to design something that actually sounds crappy. That is just the electronics, cheap speakers usually DO sound crappy, and no amount of amplifier excellence will hide that. Between them and other quality brands, I doubt they will sound any different, and I'd make purchase on basis of features and performance. You will not hear the difference between 0.001% and 0.0005% distortion.

I agree with Scott that some in-wall speakers sound pretty good. They make sub-woofers that mount betwen the floor joists under the floor and the sound comes out of what looks like a furnace vent. Works well. On the other hand some do indeed sound like a cheap intercom. "Cleanup on aisle nine..."

[Мастер]

I ordered a mid-range Onkyo 7.1 system, that has the ability to drive a secondary stereo system - I will use this latter capability to drive the in-wall speakers, along with the passive switching device I already have that allows me to turn each of the four pairs of speakers on or off at will, does proper impedance matching, etc. The secondary system can be amplified or line-level - I think that when using the amplified output, the primary system is busted back to 5.1. Not completely sure though. It has more inputs than I'm ever likely to use, with one exception - no phono input. So I have to get a pre-amp somewhere.

Still need to buy the 5.1 speakers.

Thanks for all advice!

[Heid the Ba]

I know nothing about the geek stuff, but 2010 is a World Cup year, not a Euro. I'll bring the whisky and Arneb can get the beer in. :D

[Мастер]

I know nothing about the geek stuff, but 2010 is a World Cup year, not a Euro.

Sorry. I am sure that is what I meant to say )

[Blue Monster 65]

You're welcome (for whatever it was worth). Just let us know when we can come over and watch The Venture Bros in surround sound!

Scott

[Lance]

Still need to buy the 5.1 speakers.

Cyndi and I have these. Discovering them was actually a sad day for us. Once we had attained enlightenment, we could never again know happiness until we possessed them.

[Мастер]

Still need to buy the 5.1 speakers.

Cyndi and I have these. Discovering them was actually a sad day for us. Once we had attained enlightenment, we could never again know happiness until we possessed them.

Hmm, those look like a lot of $$$$$ :(

[Мастер]

Well, home theater receiver set up with no 5.1 or 7.1 speakers. Sounds useless, but it actually isn't; I can sent the audio associated with video sources into the in-wall home speakers, which I couldn't do before. Even though it isn't surround sound, just ordinary stereo, it's amazing how much better television or Blu-ray audio sounds when coming through the in-wall speakers, instead of the speakers built-in to the television. Psychologically unsatisfying though, the way it is set up now, to sit in front of the television, and hear the sound coming from behind you. Also, it considers the video/surround sound and the remote audio (where I have the sound coming out now) to be two separate systems, so when you tell the video to switch from, let's say, live television to the Blu-ray player, the audio keeps on playing the live television audio until you switch that as well. I really need to get proper 5.1 or 7.1 speakers. I also need to replace the cheap-ass wire I used to connect the in-house speakers with proper speaker wire.

Some weird quirks. The HDMI cable connecting the satellite television receiver to the home theater system carries both video and audio. However, the home theater system can't switch the audio to the remote speakers, which is what I'm doing now - it needs to come in on a separate audio input. So I've got a HDMI cable connecting the two, but also an RCA cable pair. Each set of wire carries the same audio, but in different formats, depending on what it's going. Weird. Same deal with the Blu-ray player. The DVD/VCR combo unit, which is kept strictly for its ability to play a VHS tape, can't send the VHS out on a digital or component output, so these go to the home theater system on a composite video cable, and an RCA audio cable pair. No redundant audio there.

So, basically, I need to replace a few components that are substandard (the speaker wiring), get some 5.1/7.1 speakers, and connect more inputs. CD player - the Blu-ray can already play a single CD, but a separate CD player would allow multiple CDs to be loaded at once, and separate music to be played in a remote room while something is playing on the Blu-ray. Tape player - yep, I've got one, and still have some tapes. Need to dig it out of the basement and get it hooked up. MP3 player - maybe. Phono - need to get a pre-amp.

Like many things, ten times more work than anticipated. I hope it's worth it :P