SETI: Good science or a crackpot waste of time?

[Enzo]

But a space probe doesn't explore other star systems. They are not competing approaches.

I think SETI is scientific enough, but I think it is misguided. it very much makes me think of the old joke about a guy on the sidewalk looking for his keys and another guy asks where he dropped them. The first fellow replies that he dropped them down the block, but the light is better here.

I think the SETI approach is looking over here because it is easier than looking where they might be. We are not sending out signals in the bands we are listening on. One quick test transmission is nothing. Why would we expect ET to be sending these signals if we don't? Because it is more convenient to us? The stuff we actually broadcast night and day would not be detectable very far away, and that sort of thing is what we would have to detect from ET if we were serious.

Sure it is science, and more power to them. I think about what we could be doing with that money. Here in Lansing, private funds were collected to erect a statue of Magic Johnson - local basketball hero who went on the great success. It cost $85,000. I thought, well swell, we now honor a local hero. But wouldn't it have been an even better trobite of that money had been placed in an interest bearing fund that threw off thousands of dollars in scholarships annually? Or aided inner city kids in some way. Johnson does things of this sort where he lives and works already, so I know he has them on his mind. I might have preferred that the locals might have furthered his work by honoring him in that fashion - scholarships rather than statues.

SETI strikes me the same way. While I laud their intent, think about what those funds could do to further the education of potential scientists and asstronomers in particular. Or scholarships.

Or to be fair, we could just have one stellar keg party.

[Lance]

I saw a show on a Roswell type event that occurred in 1897 in Aurora, Texas...

I saw that too, a while ago. It seemed like yet another incident that "absolutely proves" alien visitation beyond doubt. Well, except for one minor fact. Shows like that are frustrating.

I voted good science. IIRC, for the money they are spending, it is miniscule compaired to a space probe.

SETI is privately funded, so they aren't even in competition.

I think the SETI approach is looking over here because it is easier than looking where they might be. We are not sending out signals in the bands we are listening on. One quick test transmission is nothing. Why would we expect ET to be sending these signals if we don't? Because it is more convenient to us? The stuff we actually broadcast night and day would not be detectable very far away, and that sort of thing is what we would have to detect from ET if we were serious.

Well put. I have been saying the same thing for some time now. The current SETI effort wouldn't even find us 5 or 10 lightyears away.

While I laud their intent, think about what those funds could do to further the education of potential scientists and asstronomers in particular. Or scholarships.

I don't think the dollars really compete. Many people spend much money on very stupid things every day, but important things still get done. The people that funded the statue were probably basketball fans. Had they not funded the statue, they probably would have bought cheese-head hats and #1 hands. Until there is an issue of not enough money to go around, I don't think how wisely or unwisely some of it gets spent is that big of a deal.

[Enzo]

Definitely is their own private money. And when it comes up I am the first person to say things are not mutually exclusive when someone for example suggests we should donate to oh Katrina victims instead of African AIDS victims. That doesn't stop me from wishing folks would spend their loose dough on a more appropriate measure. I think a basketball fan could take pride in funding a Magic Johnson scholarship program for example. Same with SETI. SOmetimes I wonder if folks are more interested in associating their names with something rather than just doing the something in the first place.

[I Am He]

In other words you do not care if progress is made?? If we stopped all scientific projects because of poverty or other disasters, where would we be?? But it seems that every new generation thinks the same way.

People have said the same thing about the space program. It was a waste of money they said, and there were more important things to do with it. When we built the first space station and also the second one it was the same thing.

You might see SETI as a big waste of money but SETI also contributes knowledge & technology back into society.

[Enzo]

You talking to me?

I don't think I or anyone else suggested that "we stopped all scientific projects." All I heard was that this particular one seemed misguided. Implicit in some of the remarks was that it could be done in better ways. I'm don't disagree with that even. If you are going to do it, then do it in a fashion more likely to be successful.

There will always be some who don't want to do anything, and that is not limited to scientific work, but for sake of discussion let's limit it to that. SOme said the space program was a waste of money sure. But within the scientific community, would you say the level of support for SETI is as great as the level of support for the space program? I mean support in general, not dollars. Or put the other way, do you think the space program has as many detractors as SETI.

ANy scientific or technological endeavor is likely to throw back some benefits for us all. But I look at it as an investment. SOme provide greater return than others. If I wanted to invest $1000 in an adult education course, unless I just want to have a good time and meet new friends, I might find a better return in software design than in maybe ancient Greek poetry. Not saying the poetry class would have no value, just less than the more practical one.

I for one am not an ideolog about it, I won't write my congressman, send nasty letters, or rag about it to my friends. But given the question, I find it a reasonable response. You of course are free to disagree.

And I am not convinced that the only two possibilities available are SETI or no progress.

[azazul]

Some of you seem to think that SETI is a waste of time because of the frequencies that are searched, which nobody really expected to find anything. If that is true then lets start talking about LIGO and GEO600, they have completed 4 runs that nobody expected to find anything, the instruments during these runs were not sensitive enough to find gravitational waves, but they ran it anyway. But nobody complains about this because these runs were used to test the technology and get better calibration for the observatories. Why do people reserve judgement for these devices, but not SETI, afterall SETI is doing the same thing.

Future of SETI

New SETI programs will exploit other areas of the radio spectrum, such as the microwave regions.

Because ET might send light signals as well as or instead of radio signals, more optical SETI programs may spring up.

It sounds to me as if SETI is attempting to branch into other areas of the spectrum, just as many of you are wanting.

SETI also brings us many new technologies, BOINC for example exists only because of SETI@Home. It is the project that tested all of the distributed computing technologies later implemented into BOINC. Without BOINC, there would be many projects that may never have existed. SETI is also bringing us new telescopes such as the Allen Telescope Array. You may think that is not such a big deal if you feel that we have zero chance of finding a signal from extraterrestrial intelligence, but SETI is done simultaneously with observations by radio astronomers (link). Also at that link, you will find

The SETI search is done simultaneously with the galactic survey work, and thus SETI and conventional radio astronomy can co-exist to make the best use of precious telescope time.

in reference to observations currently being made with the Parkes 64 meter telescope.

[Lance]

Thank you, azazul, that was enlightening.

My specific gripe was with the fact that the current search wouldn't even find the Earth if it were 5 lightyears away. The points you raised seem to make the SETI effort much more worthwhile.

[azazul]

My specific gripe was with the fact that the current search wouldn't even find the Earth if it were 5 lightyears away. The points you raised seem to make the SETI effort much more worthwhile.

No problem, I will admit that SETI has its problems. The fact that it would not even detect the Earth is a very good point indeed, but I am sure that they are working on it. Afterall, the Earth would be difficult to detect anyway, so they are limited to attempting to get lucky and find a civilization that for some reason emits much stronger signals than we do. After these technologies are advanced, then it will help us to eventually get to the technology we could use to find civilizations more like ourselves.

Also, as pointed out one of the links in the my previous post, the searches can be done in such a way that it does not even take away telescope time from others.

[Bill_Thompson]

I think that people cannot deal with the idea that we most likely are the first "intelligent" creatures in the galaxy. For this reason there had to be the SETI@HOME project (now part of a bigger project).

But, at the same time, it sure looks as if the SETI culture is starting to loose hope and thinks that Fermi was most likely correct. The people at Berkeley has sent out mass emails saying that they need to raise 750 thousand dollars to keep going and so far they have only raised 175 thousand. Also, one of the major players in the SETI project is The Planetary Society and more and more they seem to be shifting their focus away from SETI@home and onto other projects. It seems this way to me. I admit I only know a small amount of the facts but, at the same time, I have been messaging and emailing the people working there and this is how it seems to me right now.

BTW, science is not a democracy. This poll does not mean really anything.

[azazul]

As much as Bill hopes to convince himself that SETI and therefore SETI@Home is dying, that is far from the truth. Here is the history of donations, you will notice that of the $219,041.36 received at the time of this writing, $168,159.98 of that was donated in March. This is because the fundraiser was not publicly announced until last month. If that rate stays the same, the fundraiser would raise an amazing $1,681,599.80, not counting anything raised before March. Which is more than double what they are hoping to raise. You may wonder if they can keep up this pace, well this month(1/5 of the way through) so far they have received $35545.88 in donations. Which means they are on pace to receive $177,729.4 this month.

BTW, science is not a democracy. This poll does not mean really anything.

You are of course correct, unfortunately this means that your opinion of SETI also does not really mean anything.

[Halcyon Dayz, FCD]

I think that people cannot deal with the idea that we most likely are the first "intelligent" creatures in the galaxy.

Since the people behind SETI do not have 'the idea that we most
likely are the first "intelligent" creatures in the galaxy', they are
probably not dealing with something else.

[Lance]

Bill;

The terms "SETI" and "SETI@Home" are not synonymous. It is confusing when you use them they way you do.

SETI is a general term that describes many independent projects being conducted separately, by many different entities.

SETI@Home is just one of them.

It seems you have issues with both, and that's fine, but when you use one term and are talking about the other, it make you hard to understand.

[Enzo]

It is the same sliding definition thing like he uses in the intellignce versus intelligence discussion.

[I Am He]

I think you hit the nail right on the head with that one, Enzo.

[Bill_Thompson]

Some of you seem to think that SETI is a waste of time because of the frequencies that are searched, which nobody really expected to find anything. If that is true then lets start talking about LIGO and GEO600, they have completed 4 runs that nobody expected to find anything, the instruments during these runs were not sensitive enough to find gravitational waves, but they ran it anyway. But nobody complains about this because these runs were used to test the technology and get better calibration for the observatories. Why do people reserve judgement for these devices, but not SETI, afterall SETI is doing the same thing.

Future of SETI

New SETI programs will exploit other areas of the radio spectrum, such as the microwave regions.

Keep grasping at straws and pipe dreams.

The Universe is an amaizing place full of lots of cool discoveries. But it seems to be truly random and we seem to be a product of the randomness. We dream of a universe full of folks just like us. I do not understand why that is. It must be part of our nature to do so.

[Bill_Thompson]

Bill;

The terms "SETI" and "SETI@Home" are not synonymous. It is confusing when you use them they way you do.

SETI is a general term that describes many independent projects being conducted separately, by many different entities.

SETI@Home is just one of them.

It seems you have issues with both, and that's fine, but when you use one term and are talking about the other, it make you hard to understand.

That is right.

And I have read that SETI@HOME has searched about 97 percent of the sky.

So now SETI is moving on to look for lasar transmissions instead of radio frequencies.

What will they resort to after that is exhausted?

[Bill_Thompson]

It is the same sliding definition thing like he uses in the intellignce versus intelligence discussion.

typo vs non-typo?

[Lance]

We dream of a universe full of folks just like us.

I think this is the most important insight you have ever given us into why you feel the way you do. This makes it seem like much more of an emotional issue to you than a scientific one. You must be disappointed that we aren't living in a galaxy like in Star Wars. Well, maybe we are and just don't know it yet. Be patient, Bill. We have barely started to look and the galaxy is vast. We have no idea what we may find out there so let science do its work. It's okay for you to be emotional about it too, but try not to let it get in the way of logic so much.

And I have read that SETI@HOME has searched about 97 percent of the sky.

And this would not be the first time you cited an incorrect fact to support your opinion. I think this is why so many of your opinions seem silly, because they are based on "facts" that are not facts at all. You should research your sources a little instead of just blindly "believing". It almost seems like this is a religion to you, and that you are willing to believe anything that supports your views.

SETI@Home uses Arecibo in Puerto Rico to gather data, and it is limited, because of its latitude, to about 28% of the sky. Consider also the limited bandwidth of the data gathered and the actual survey that has been conducted so far is tiny indeed.

[Superluminal]

Also, scanning 97% of the sky, isn't the same as scanning 97% of the stars in the galaxy.

[azazul]

The Universe is an amaizing place full of lots of cool discoveries. But it seems to be truly random and we seem to be a product of the randomness.

It does seem to be truly random indeed, now are you saying that a random number generator will never choose the same number twice?

We dream of a universe full of folks just like us.

I don't, I will tell you straight up that I do not know if we are it or if there is 1 other civilization, or if there is millions. I do not have near enough information to make an assumption on the matter.

And I have read that SETI@HOME has searched about 97 percent of the sky.

Lance already covered this error. But I would also like to point out that we have search .000000285714...% of the time the universe has existed.

[Bill_Thompson]

It is science that says some projects within the SETI field are a waste of time. The fields of study that suggest this include metallurgy, geology, chemistry, astronomy, and physics.

People like SETI because they are dreamers, not because they are scientists.

The densest planet in the solar system is The Earth. It has a lead core that generates our protective shield from deadly radiation. No other small rocky planets have that. Plus our moon that is just right shape and distance to keep our orbit stable. Otherwise, like Mars and Venus, our axis would have a yaw and gradually the polar ice would melt and trek all over the surface carving away all live that was trying to get a foothold.

But that is just a few of so many special qualities that I could list. But way bother? Noone wants to hear them. And if they hear them they will fantasize that they don't matter because they are not scientists.

So it is not unexpected that I would naturally think you are just dreaming of being rescued by ET. Although it is contrary to everything you have been taught and told to expect, he is not coming.

I love these quotes:

"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck." - Thomas Jefferson

"Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth, more than ruin, more even than death. Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man" - Bertrand Russell

People fear the idea that life on earth is an insignificant fluke to nature. But too many things point to that being true to ignore it.

This one is my favorite:

"Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing." - T. H. Huxley

[Lance]

It is science that says some projects within the SETI field are a waste of time. The fields of study that suggest this include metallurgy, geology, chemistry, astronomy, and physics.

You should read the article on Weasel Words at WikiPedia.

People like SETI because they are dreamers, not because they are scientists.

I'm not sure "like" and science go together Bill. Just like here. You obviously dislike SETI for some unknown reason and it clouds your judgment. A real scientist would keep an open mind instead of trying to find or manufacture evidence to support his preconceived notion like you've been doing for years now. There is still something about SETI that you just don't seem to get. It may be easier for you to just drop the issue instead of always appearing to be wrong and ignorant to people. I don't mean that as a slam Bill. It's just some friendly advice. If you are offended by the comment then please accept my apology and forget I ever said it.

This one is my favorite:

"Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing." - T. H. Huxley

Yeah, that's a good one. May I suggest you try it?

[umop ap!sdn]

A few minor nitpicks:

The Earth's core is actually nickel-iron, not lead. ;)

Plus our moon that is just right shape and distance to keep our orbit stable.

Actually the Moon stabilizes our axis, not our orbit. Mars' axial tilt does vary a lot, but Venus' doesn't - it's almost exactly perpendicular to the plane of the Solar System.

Otherwise, like Mars and Venus, our axis would have a yaw and gradually the polar ice would melt and trek all over the surface carving away all live that was trying to get a foothold.

Sure, if pieces of ice broke off they'd float around in the seas, but on land they'd just melt into the groundwater. Not really all that bad for life. Keep in mind too that whenever there's a Sun-facing (summer) pole, there's also an opposite (winter) pole in which ice could accumulate. :)

[Мастер]

I'm generally uncertain about whether people here are arguing about whether extraterrestial life exists, or whether a search for such life should be funded.

[Dragon Star]

A few minor nitpicks:

The Earth's core is actually nickel-iron, not lead. ;)

Wouldn't it be Iron-Nickel? :P