Jesus Camp

[Lonewulf]

This may sound flippant, but I don't intend it to be. If you are worried about brainwashing, worry about the one-two punch of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity every day. This is six hours of non-stop propaganda listened to in places of work all over this land every day. You hear something enough you start to believe it. I am not so concerned that a handful of kids in a church school in the middle of nowhere are going to take over the world.

Oh, I agree. My only worry isn't a "handful of kids"; I see them as a symptom of a MUCH MUCH larger problem. But they're still a symptom, just like I believe that George Bush is a symptom of today's evangelical problems, Ronald Reagan and his administration were a symptom, and George Bush Senior was a symptom of the problems of the Cold War (I.E., "Atheists shouldn't be considered patriots or Americans", what with the idea of "those godless communists")

The problem with these "handful of kids" (I don't know how many kids are actually being brought up like this) is the quality, not quantity, of the brainwashing. They're directly affected by it, since they are being paid close attention to.

Having a radio station for a long period of time takes a lot more to "brainwash" someone than, say, locking someone in a room and continuing to drill a concept into their head over and over and over again.

Take the character, say, in the book 1984; he wasn't effected at all by the government propaganda, and he worked himself out of it. However, when he was recaptured and tortured, his mind was worked by a professional to grow more and more towards thinking that Big Brother and the Party was 100% correct in everything.

(Yes, I know they aren't torturing kids, but still).

Further, these kids are *purposely* being raised for the purposes of being "God's Warriors", and also for the purpose of affecting politics; there is a real push for change just with these kids. They are symptoms, IMO, of a larger disorder.

I wouldn't underestimate this frightening event at all.

And no, I would not like the radio onslaught any more if it were supporting left wing doctrine. I don't care for Randy Rhodes or (shudder) Lionel any more than the right wing assholes.

Or Michael Mooron.

[Мастер]

This may sound flippant, but I don't intend it to be. If you are worried about brainwashing, worry about the one-two punch of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity every day. This is six hours of non-stop propaganda listened to in places of work all over this land every day. You hear something enough you start to believe it. I am not so concerned that a handful of kids in a church school in the middle of nowhere are going to take over the world.

What do you propose to do about it?

On the small number of occasions when I've listened to the programs you reference, I didn't hear a whole lot that would, in my opinion, convince anyone who is not already inclined in their direction. It strikes me more as cheerleading for the already-converted. Which makes sense to me, how big is the audience of people who want to be told their viewpoints make them intelligent, important, righteous, whatever, and how big is the audience of people who believe one thing but want to be persuaded to believe something else?

[Lonewulf]

I never listened to Rush Limbaugh's show.

I consider a radio show to be a lot different than brainwashing kids, though.

[The Beer Slayer]

A radio show is a lot different from someone immersing themselves in the environment of a camp. These two things aren't even in the same ballpark.

[Enzo]

I don't propose to do anything about it other than try to provide real information and actual critical thinking when I hear or see the nonsense from those shows being parroted.

Other than the occasional out and out lies, what bugs me about those shows is often as not the throw away lines. "Liberals hate AMerica so much..." and then they present their latest gripe. I now hear people around me talking and I often hear that Liberals hate America, that Liberals can't be trusted, etc. I realize those shows preach to the choir, but they also drone on in the ears of people not so actively engaged. They may not understand what NAFTA means at any level, but they do know that whatever the Liberals have to say about it is bad.

My ultra right wing brother in law has told me that he genuinely believes that Liberals will lie or do whatever they have to to push their agenda on the country, unlike COnservatives who are honest and straightforward in their patriotic work.

But i didn't mean to steal the thread.

I think these church schools are not all that new. FUndamentalist education has been around a long while. And while we focus on these Christian groups, the ultra orthodox Jews and certainly extreme Muslims do the same stuff. WHat might be new is their willingness to actually state their goals and methodology, whereas prior it went without saying

I suppose fundamentalism is fundamentalism, but until I read about it in a recent issue of Skeptic I never thought about the orthodox jews. Their views are extremely anti-science, they believe in geocentrism even, and the world is literally only a few thousand years old, evolution is denied. In fact they are not supposed to read ANYTHING but the Torah. Not picking on them as a group, I just never realized they held the similar outlook to the extremist Christian groups. I don't know why I would ever have thought that narrow outlook religionists would be the exclusive domain of one religion

If you are interested:

http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/fea ... ution.html

[Lonewulf]

I think these church schools are not all that new. FUndamentalist education has been around a long while. And while we focus on these Christian groups, the ultra orthodox Jews and certainly extreme Muslims do the same stuff. WHat might be new is their willingness to actually state their goals and methodology, whereas prior it went without saying

Er, I think you're misinterpreting what the group is about. These kids are being raised for a VERY SPECIFIC purpose, and it isn't just to be some fundamentalist with odd beliefs.

The VERY SPECIFIC purpose is that of political influence. They're being raised to be "warriors for God". I think that the scope of the training is growing from simply indoctrinating kids to getting them to not only conform, but potentially to be extremely dangerous.

This isn't about geocentrism, this isn't about odd beliefs, and this isn't about how they read and interpret the bible or not.

This is about being WARRIORS FOR CHRIST. Note the subtext. For all I know, they're being taught specifically, in this case, of how to be terrorists.

Terrorists have a radical influence on a culture, moreso than most will even admit.

[Enzo]

Yeah, I know. WHen we went to school we were being trained to be the new leaders of the free world. Well not all of us fulfilled those goals. I know what the school intends. I understand its self-important purpose. AS with any learning group, not all the students will succeed within it, nor will those that do wind up on the path pointed out to them.

Of those, some will try nothing more than to get on the Kansas school board, and one might go on to be the next Pat Robertson or Ralph Reed.

[Lonewulf]

Pat Robertson is probably more dangerous than Rush Limbaugh, due to his one million watchers...

However, the intentions of your school and the intentions of this group are different. The school was committed to teaching you something, then letting you go. I don't know how this evangelical school is, but I highly doubt it compares. These seem the types to fund kids and push them long after they've left the group.

Further, the school you went into didn't fully try to fully brainwash you. I mean, those kids convinced to be suicide bombers by Islamist extremists are perfect examples of what children can be convinced to do by a brainwashing fanatical group...

[Мастер]

My ultra right wing brother in law has told me that he genuinely believes that Liberals will lie or do whatever they have to to push their agenda on the country, unlike COnservatives who are honest and straightforward in their patriotic work.

It took me a while to get used to that one, when I used to hear people say things like that, I just assumed it was so much guff, but I'm pretty convinced a lot of them really believe it now. Oddly enough, I used to hear things like this from my brother-in-law and his friends at social events, then I would hear the lefties at work proclaim with perfectly straight faces that they were more honest, noble, generous, etc. than their righty counterparts (I personally saw nothing that persuaded me that this was true). I thus received regular immunizations against left-wing Nazism during the week, and right-wing Nazism on weekends. . .

[Lonewulf]

"Liberals and Conservatives -- two words for narrow minds".

I don't necessarily agree with that, but I think that trying to get an "us vs. them" with a two-party mentality isn't really healthy.

[Enzo]

However, the intentions of your school and the intentions of this group are different.

DOn't look too deeply into my statement. I can make a different example than my school. The point was simply that social groups - which in a larger sense schools are an example of - often have grandiose ideas about their importance, their abilities, the scope of their influence beyond reaility.

Talk radio audience, millions of listeners daily:

Top Talk Radio Shows by Audience Size and Ideology

Posted on 04/18/2005


1. Rush Limbaugh (Conservative) 14.50

2. Sean Hannity (Conservative) 11.75

3. Dr. Laura Schlessinger (Conservative) 8.50

Howard Stern (Non-ideological) 8.50

5. Michael Savage(Conservative) 7.00

6. Jim Bohannon (Moderate) 4.00

Dr. Joy Browne(Non-political) 4.00

Don Imus (Non-ideological) 4.00

George Noory (Non-political) 4.00

10. Neal Boortz (Libertarian) 2.50

Mike Gallagher(Conservative) 2.50

Clark Howard (Non-political) 2.50

13. Glenn Beck(Conservative) 2.00

Ken and Daria Dolan (Non-political) 2.00

G. Gordon Liddy(Conservative) 2.00

Doug Stephan and Nancy Skinner (Non-ideological) 2.00

17. Kim Komando(Non-political) 1.75

Bill O'Reilly (Conservative) 1.75

Jim Rome (Non-political) 1.75

20. Bob Brinker (Non-political) 1.50

Rusty Humphries(Conservative) 1.50

Michael Medved(Conservative) 1.50

Dave Ramsey (Non-political) 1.50

24. Dr. Dean Edell (Non-political) 1.25

Phil Hendrie (Non-ideological) 1.25

Laura Ingraham(Conservative) 1.25

Tom Leykis (Non-ideological) 1.25

Bruce Williams (Non-political) 1.25


The 700 Club - Pat Robertson's TV show and his primary media outlet - averaged 836,000 viewers per day last year according to Nielsen. COmpare that to the CNN prime time audience of about 713,000.[/quote]

[Dragon Star]

The 700 Club - Pat Robertson's TV show and his primary media outlet - averaged 836,000 viewers per day last year according to Nielsen. COmpare that to the CNN prime time audience of about 713,000.

[/quote]

I nearly fell out of my chair just now.

[Lonewulf]

A radio show is more unlikely to churn out terrorists than intensive training w/ brainwashing.

[Lance]

A radio show is more unlikely to churn out terrorists than intensive training w/ brainwashing.

Okay, granted but the reach of a radio show is far greater than that of a terrorist training camp. Even if the radio show is only 1% as successful as direct training, they have still effected far greater numbers of people than any hands-on approach could ever dream of doing.

[Lonewulf]

Okay, granted but the reach of a radio show is far greater than that of a terrorist training camp. Even if the radio show is only 1% as successful as direct training, they have still effected far greater numbers of people than any hands-on approach could ever dream of doing.

Yeah, but quality over quantity. Are those 1% willing to lay down their life in the name of Allah, Jesus, or some other concept?

Also, a radio show allows you to think. You listen to it, you mull over it, and you may buy some things; but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll buy all of it. And even if you do, you can do some mental justification. Just look at the people that drank the purple koolaid; that was a LOT of people convinced to do it.

With brainwashing, there is no justification, there is no "buying some things"; it's all or nothing. You sit there and get something pounded into your head again and again. If you disagree or show disagreement, you're punished in some way (physically, mentally, socially) until you start admitting that it's the "correct" way to think. This leads to some extraordinary human conditioning, to the point where the subject may end up giving up his life for a cause.

The thing about this intensive conditioning, I might add, is that evangelical camps like this may grow with time if it is not countered. I don't think that it's harmless, and above all I don't think that it should be allowed to roam free unchecked. What if they build more and more?

[Enzo]

What if they don't?

What has not been established is how effective this course of action is for them. Just because someone is told they are expected to lay down their life for something doesn't mean they will so it. In the military, ther is a very large incentive to do what you are told in battle: They will shoot YOU if you don't. That is one motivation lacking here.

[Lonewulf]

What if they don't?

What if they do?

What has not been established is how effective this course of action is for them. Just because someone is told they are expected to lay down their life for something doesn't mean they will so it.

You're assuming that they're simply being "told" to do so, and not "brainwashed" into doing so.

If brainwashing people didn't work, then why is it so popular amongst groups like the Islamic terrorist camps?

[Enzo]

Brainwashing works, the question is how often?

I would agree that the washee doesn't get to be partial to some tenets but not others. I would not agree that everyone going through the program will come out a convert. I am not assuming they are "simply being told," i used that terminology to keep the sentence short. Not everyone in the tub gets washed.

I am more concerned with the Michigan Militia and similar nut cases than I am of a couple church school brainwashers. Feel free to fear whomever you like.

[Lonewulf]

Brainwashing works, the question is how often?

I would agree that the washee doesn't get to be partial to some tenets but not others. I would not agree that everyone going through the program will come out a convert. I am not assuming they are "simply being told," i used that terminology to keep the sentence short. Not everyone in the tub gets washed.

I am more concerned with the Michigan Militia and similar nut cases than I am of a couple church school brainwashers. Feel free to fear whomever you like.

Well, okay, but I still think that you're underestimating them. I mean, I might remind you that a lot of those Islamic terrorists were brought up brainwashing camps, reciting the quran over and over again (without understanding what it said, being told by priests what they wanted the children to learn).

Brainwashing *does* work, and it's been demonstrated to work. Children are also the most susceptible. It really seems like a no-brainer to me. Even if one or two kids turn away, more than likely the majority will come away programmed a certain way. I still can't understand why you don't see the danger here. Is it just me? Am I too new-fashioned in thinking that brainwashing kids into being "warriors for Christ", to combat radical Islamists by being radical Christians should set off some alarm bells?

I dunno. Maybe I'm just crazy.

[Heid the Ba]

I mean, I might remind you that a lot of those Islamic terrorists were brought up brainwashing camps, reciting the quran over and over again (without understanding what it said, being told by priests what they wanted the children to learn).

Do you have any evidence for this? Which Islamic terrorists? Why would they not read and understand the Quran? Please don't fall into the trap of assuming that Islamic terrorists must be brainwashed, stupid or uneducated or they would not do what they do. Many are educated and making a concious choice (for whatever reason) to do what they do. Islamic terrorists do not form a monolithic block, some act out of poverty, others for nationalistic reasons, others religious, yet others are simply evil and use Islam as a cover.

In Iraq, many "insurgents" are at least as well educated as the squaddies they are fighting. The complex nature of the roadside bombings does not suggest they picked this up reciting verses they did not understand.

[Enzo]

Underestimate? No, I think of it more as putting it is perspective. To use my previous example, there are thousands of the militia types - this area is a hotbed of them in fact. They are the groups that spawn the Tim McVeighs of the land. There are a lot more of them than ther are ultra ultra Jesus schools. And frankly I think they are more likely to pay off in violence.

Every bar I've ever been in has its share of soi dissant tough guys who love to hear themselves talk about what they'd do if some towel head came after him by God, Boy he'd show 'em. The edge of their bar stool is as close as they ever come to anything. These Jesus schools are full of the tough talk, and love to hear themselvs prattle about being warriors for Jesus, and just wait until some towel head comes after them by God, boy we'll show 'em.

Sure some unbalanced individual might take things to far and hurt someone, but I think that a lot more people will freak out at their place of work and just go postal. MArdi Gras will hurt more people than these geeks will.

I might think that it would be awful to be struck by lightning in my yard, and I could fight the threat by erecting lightning rods all over and a grounded dome over my house. However, I think I have much more to fear from the bugs in the yard that potentially carry west nile virus. And worrying about the state of my window screens might be more appropriate to my needs that all those rods out there. I don't underestimate the power of lightning, but i do put in it perspective of the whole range of threats my home faces.

[Lonewulf]

I don't think you've "put things into perspective" at all, especially since you seem to be using the wrong analogies.

What, you think that just because it's unlikely that a "towel head" will come after these kids, that they don't pose any kind of future threat?

Abortion Clinic Violence, yo. The "Kids on Fire" camp teaches kids specifically to be against abortion, and get them active, emotionally and physically, against abortion clinics.

Right now, at this time, if they were taught to rush into an abortion clinic as a suicide bomber, I think that they would do it. Ten years from now, when they have far better means to attack abortion clinics, I think that they will pose a significant threat. Why does this seem so illogical to you?

Does brainwashing really just fade away as one gets older, with no due side effects on their psyche?

[Мастер]

Brainwashing works, the question is how often?

Perhaps we are in full agreement on this, but the brevity of the statement makes me unsure. What is the evidence on its effectiveness? I tend to be of the opinion that seeds don't grow if they don't fall on fertile ground, but if you ask me what is my evidence on this question, I don't have any, it is simply my ill-informed conjecture. . .

[Lonewulf]

Brainwashing works, the question is how often?

Perhaps we are in full agreement on this, but the brevity of the statement makes me unsure. What is the evidence on its effectiveness? I tend to be of the opinion that seeds don't grow if they don't fall on fertile ground, but if you ask me what is my evidence on this question, I don't have any, it is simply my ill-informed conjecture. . .

Well, Wikipedia basically shows it as a controversial topic.

But I would counter by saying that very few children have "infertile" minds. In fact, most of the way we think can be traced back to being children, where we also develop many of our values.

[Dragon Star]

Off topic: I would be careful about using the word "Brainwash" when talking about family or peer influence (which I am associating with Wulf's last comment about children). Brainwashing is an intentional method of persuasion. I just hear a lot about brainwashing that really isn't. There seems to be an absence of knowledge between opinion and fact at an early age, so they might believe something that isn't true even though who told them didn't intentionally mean for them to take it literally.

For example, an older brother telling his younger brother about the monster under his bed.