Jesus Camp

[Enzo]

What, you think that just because it's unlikely that a "towel head" will come after these kids, that they don't pose any kind of future threat?

No, what I did was draw a parallel with the guys in the bar who love to boast of what they'd do if so and so happened, when we all know that they are not going to do a damned thing but continue to sit on their bar stool and carp. The parallel was that these schools talk a good game as to how they are going to go fight the scourge of radical Islam or whatever, and it will wind up also just being a lot of rhetoric.

I don't think they pose much of a threat because of their small numbers and limited scope. Has nothing to do with radical Islamists coming anywhere near the northern plains. Just as the elephant fence around my yard is unlikely to be tested, so also the threat of Islamic terrorists descending upon Fargo or Bismark or Helena or Boise. BY God when those Islamic bastards come to our town, WE'LL BE READY. Just so when the elephants attack my yard.

Abortion Clinic Violence, yo. The "Kids on Fire" camp teaches kids specifically to be against abortion, and get them active, emotionally and physically, against abortion clinics.

OK, teaching kids stuff like that is wrong - to me - but a whole lot of other domestic terrorists have come up with the idea of violence towards abortion all on their own without Jesus camp brainwashing. These kids can get in line with all the others. And just liek the folk who sit around and talk about how they oughta blow up the local abortion clinic, only a very few actually do so, and I have no reason to believe these kids will be any more prone than the whackos who do it now.

Does brainwashing really just fade away as one gets older, with no due side effects on their psyche?

THat leaves so many questions. What exactly then do you mean by "brainwashing? As used in this debate it has become a catch all term for a whole range of mental conditioning. Not in evidence is how effective it is, only your assumption that it creates atomatons who will mindlessly carry out preconditioned commands. What exactly do you mean by "side effects?"

Lots of things in the mind fade over time. Kids tend to look at things more black and white than most adults, more idealistically, with little regard for context. The kid who is taught that abortionists are evil spawn of Satan and should be killed without a second thought - or whatever - more likely than not will grow up still thinking abortion is terribly wrong, but not so much that abortionist should be shot on sight without thought.

So if the side effect is the attitutde about the issue, sure it lingers on. If the side effect is kill 'em all, I doubt it.

Right now, at this time, if they were taught to rush into an abortion clinic as a suicide bomber, I think that they would do it. Ten years from now, when they have far better means to attack abortion clinics, I think that they will pose a significant threat. Why does this seem so illogical to you?

It seems unlikely and irrational, I don't see a logical inference being posed. I see a huge difference between telling kids that it would be God's work to rush into a clinic and blow it up with your own demise, and just saying that that would be a great thing showing your love or whatever. The AL Qaidas are actually taught the nuts and bolts of blowing themselves up, and there is a support netwrok for the effort and even for their families. That is a far cry from instilling a value that CHirst is worth dying for.

Ten years from now they might as adults - or close - have a greater capability of carrying out some nefarious scheme, they are less likely to do so than kids would be. Kids have a simplistic comic book view of reality, while adults have a more grounded outlook.

I am sure you can point out some over the top individual who went nuts, but that is the exception. otherwise they'd be in the paper daily.

Abortion Clinic Violence, yo. The "Kids on Fire" camp teaches kids specifically to be against abortion, and get them active, emotionally and physically, against abortion clinics.

A list of anti abortion violence? Yes indeed it exists, and the majority of these people were not the product of jesus camps, they are plain garden variety religious nuts who have been there all along and will continue to be there. No one had to brainwash these people. I don't see Kids on Fire on the site cited, perhaps I overlooked it. If so, point it out.

However google takes me to the kids in ministry site which apparently sponsors the kids on fire camp. Note it is kids enflamed with passion for the lord, not their little bodies ignited in suicide bombings. Yes, they teach them abortion is wrong, just as they do at the local megachurch right here in my town. ut teaches them to oppose and fight abortion, not to blow up clinics and murder doctors. I am not sure that it is a germane example.

You seem to think this is an amazing threat to us all, and I think it is a lot or been there done that. More of the same stuff that has always been there, and no more threat now than it ever was. Just rhetoric.

[Lonewulf]

No, what I did was draw a parallel with the guys in the bar who love to boast of what they'd do if so and so happened, when we all know that they are not going to do a damned thing but continue to sit on their bar stool and carp. The parallel was that these schools talk a good game as to how they are going to go fight the scourge of radical Islam or whatever, and it will wind up also just being a lot of rhetoric.

I don't think they pose much of a threat because of their small numbers and limited scope. Has nothing to do with radical Islamists coming anywhere near the northern plains. Just as the elephant fence around my yard is unlikely to be tested, so also the threat of Islamic terrorists descending upon Fargo or Bismark or Helena or Boise. BY God when those Islamic bastards come to our town, WE'LL BE READY. Just so when the elephants attack my yard.

Y'know, you don't actually know how limited a scope this really is. I mean, evangelical schools and organizations are pretty damn wide-spread, and quite frankly, both of us don't know how many groups are actually like the "Kids on Fire" group. For all I know, hundreds of thousands of kids are being brainwashed this way.

OK, teaching kids stuff like that is wrong - to me - but a whole lot of other domestic terrorists have come up with the idea of violence towards abortion all on their own without Jesus camp brainwashing. These kids can get in line with all the others. And just liek the folk who sit around and talk about how they oughta blow up the local abortion clinic, only a very few actually do so, and I have no reason to believe these kids will be any more prone than the whackos who do it now.

I still think that you're underestimating the problem. I'll repeat what I said earlier: Those islamic children aren't doing suicide bombing because it's fun, but because they're being convinced (through brainwashing) to do it. Why should I assume that these children are going to be any more harmless than those islamic children?

When I hear about children who are *convinced* to fight, and possibly die, when they're obviously far too young to really make up their mind about what's "right" and "wrong" outside of it being spoon-fed to them, I don't assume that it's purely a choice, and that they're just *choosing* to believe what they're being told.

Vietnamese children were convinced to kill american soldiers, oftentimes ending up killing the children themselves. Japanese children were convinced to attack U.S. troops, often killing them. Some islamic extremist children are growing up in camps, where it's nothing but strict regimen and training.

Quite frankly, SOMETHING about this WORKS. I'm not going to ignore that.

THat leaves so many questions. What exactly then do you mean by "brainwashing? As used in this debate it has become a catch all term for a whole range of mental conditioning. Not in evidence is how effective it is, only your assumption that it creates atomatons who will mindlessly carry out preconditioned commands. What exactly do you mean by "side effects?"

Oh, for the love of...

See above.

Lots of things in the mind fade over time. Kids tend to look at things more black and white than most adults, more idealistically, with little regard for context. The kid who is taught that abortionists are evil spawn of Satan and should be killed without a second thought - or whatever - more likely than not will grow up still thinking abortion is terribly wrong, but not so much that abortionist should be shot on sight without thought.

Then why are children so effectively being brought up as terrorists in some Islamic countries?


Oh, whatever. You think that there's no threat whatsoever, go ahead and think that.

[Heid the Ba]

Lonewulf my previous post seems to have been ignored, possibly as we are now on a new page.

I am unfamiliar with Japanese children attacking US soldiers, can you point me in the direction of a reference?

[Lonewulf]

Do you have any evidence for this? Which Islamic terrorists? Why would they not read and understand the Quran? Please don't fall into the trap of assuming that Islamic terrorists must be brainwashed, stupid or uneducated or they would not do what they do. Many are educated and making a concious choice (for whatever reason) to do what they do. Islamic terrorists do not form a monolithic block, some act out of poverty, others for nationalistic reasons, others religious, yet others are simply evil and use Islam as a cover.

Many terrorists do. However, I've watched documentaries on what it's like in some islamic countries, and there are children that are brought up reading and reciting the Quran over and over again.

The Quran is kept from being translated from it's original language, and the Muslim clerics instruct the worshippers on what it means. Unfortunately, this also means that they can merely say to the children what the children want to hear. As a result, the children in that area were being brought up to think that it was sinful to see women bathing at all, and that he would go to hell.

I don't have a reference... however, information on the Quran can be found here. I don't have a lot of time at the current moment, so I can't pour through it, I just know what the documentaries I've seen said.

In Iraq, many "insurgents" are at least as well educated as the squaddies they are fighting. The complex nature of the roadside bombings does not suggest they picked this up reciting verses they did not understand.

Ah, okay. So understand all the verses you recite make you good at bombing. Gotcha.

[Lonewulf]

am unfamiliar with Japanese children attacking US soldiers, can you point me in the direction of a reference?

From what I've read on our brief conflict with Japan during WWII, they did. I don't have a reference at hand, but if you really need "evidence" that children are being used in conflicts...

Here's a PDF of children being used in conflicts across Africa.

Here's a list of the various modern conflicts that Japan has gone through. I note that they lost "millions" of people, while the bombs themselves only killed about 200,000. That's not really proof that they used children, but from what sources I viewed that was the case. I just have a bad habit of not listing my sources when I read information.

I'll look over the various Muslim camps to see which one was mentioned in the special I saw... but that would take a bit of research, and I'm currently swamped in schoolwork.

But hey, don't believe me. Kids aren't being brought up in any kind of militant camps, aren't being taught only one way of thinking, and aren't being brainwashed at all. I'm sure that the Jesus Camps are perfectly capable at being open-minded in their instruction, and not teaching children that there's only "one" way to think. :)

[Heid the Ba]

Lonewulf Your argument about brainwashing Islamic children into to terrorists is based on tv documentaries, and you can't recall which countries or documentaries, yet you seem surprised and offended when I ask for details.

I don't require information on the Quran, I have a copy. Only in translation, but it gives the gist of it.

You wrote: "Ah, okay. So understand all the verses you recite make you good at bombing. Gotcha."

I don't understand this. My point was that terrorists can be highly trained soldiers, not brainwashed children. I apologise if that was not clear.

I am reasonably familiar with the Pacific Campaign in WW2 and am not aware of any time US soldiers and Japanese civilians came into contact other than Okinawa, and I am aware of no instances of children attacking soldiers on that island. I simply ask for clarification.

I am aware of child soldiers in Africa, but not of the relevance of this to my question.

Your facetious last paragraph is nothing more than a strawman, I have made no such assertion and have not implied those are my views. I have simply asked for references for your assertions, and clarifications of your points. If you are not able or willing to provide these then I will judge your argments on that basis.

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf Your argument about brainwashing Islamic children into to terrorists is based on tv documentaries, and you can't recall which countries or documentaries, yet you seem surprised and offended when I ask for details.

I'm somewhat upset that I can't just look over and click to trace back to what I saw. I don't memorize every documentary, nor do I keep a detailed listing of the names, and times, of what I see.

Also, I was tired and rushed this morning, so that came out a bit.

If I could easily find the information that I ingested, I would. I cannot, so I am frustrated. I hate seeming idiotic or ignorant, especially when I know what I saw.

I don't require information on the Quran, I have a copy. Only in translation, but it gives the gist of it.

But from what I understand, it's not considered canonical. I apologize if I'm wrong on this.

I don't understand this. My point was that terrorists can be highly trained soldiers, not brainwashed children. I apologise if that was not clear.

"Can" be does not imply "must be". I'm sure that there are some suicide bombings done by children. Regardless, let's go over a few things...

First of all, how is the knowledge of bomb use comparable to fully knowing the tenets of your faith?

Second of all, why would being a "trained soldier" suggest enlightenment in any other issue outside of warfare?

Third of all, can "trained soldiers" result from "brainwashed children"? A brainwashed child raised in a certain family cannot later be a soldier, that is trained?

I am reasonably familiar with the Pacific Campaign in WW2 and am not aware of any time US soldiers and Japanese civilians came into contact other than Okinawa, and I am aware of no instances of children attacking soldiers on that island. I simply ask for clarification.

Alright, I could be wrong, then.

I am aware of child soldiers in Africa, but not of the relevance of this to my question.

My overall point was that children are, and have been, used for combat.

Your facetious last paragraph is nothing more than a strawman, I have made no such assertion and have not implied those are my views.

I apologize, I let my emotions get away with me too often.

I just don't see why what I'm saying is so controversial. If you look at any location, you see that the majority follow some sort of religion, some sort of idea, some sort of value. You trace this back to how they were brought up. If you are born in China, your ideals and values are represented by that area's majority view. If you're brought up in America, statistically, there is a greater chance that your ideas and values correspond to American ideas and values. That doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't exceptions, just that statistically they are exceptions.

When you grow up, you grow up with those values. You can "potentially" pull away from them, but being raised in a closed-off group that intentionally attempts to manipulate your emotions and ideas, and keep drilling something into you again and again and again and again has far more an effect on you than being raised in a family that's far more open minded and unwilling to force ideas on you.

If you raise someone in a closed group, or cult, you can control those values and ideas. They aren't really going to come out of it with completely different ideas. This "Kids on Fire" group is pretty closed (it certainly isn't open to outside views and ideas, though the kids may have the potential to be exposed to it), and I'm very dubious that everyone who ends up in Islamic terrorist camps did so because they were all intelligent and enlightened and fully understand everything about their faith.

I have simply asked for references for your assertions, and clarifications of your points. If you are not able or willing to provide these then I will judge your argments on that basis.

Eh, fair enough, I suppose. Well, since I can't remember any details, then I guess I retract my statements. Frustrating. I *know* what I saw, but since I can't remember details, I might as well not even say it. :/

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother with internet forums. They do nothing but leave me feel dumber than I really am.

[Enzo]

Y'know, you don't actually know how limited a scope this really is. I mean, evangelical schools and organizations are pretty damn wide-spread, and quite frankly, both of us don't know how many groups are actually like the "Kids on Fire" group. For all I know, hundreds of thousands of kids are being brainwashed this way.

That right there is exactly the point. I don't know how limited in scope this really is. NEITHER DO YOU. For all you know hundreds of thousands of kids are being brainwashed this way. Sure, or for all you know 23 kids are being brainwashed this way. Your arguments seem to imply that you perceive the potential for a large number to be equivalent to the that threat actually existing. I am not willing to make that leap.

You see something and react that geez, if this were to happen, things would be awful. If it WERE to happen, I'd agree. The difference being that I myself see no reason to think it is the case.

Why should I assume that these children are going to be any more harmless than those islamic children?

One huge difference is that to those Islamists whose children are bombers, their enemy - us - us an invading army right in their own streets. Their sisters, brothers, fathers, mothers are dying around them day after day. If that were happening HERE, I have no doubt that a greater number of our kids could be convinced to do something over the top. But while it is not that hard to convince a young mind that abortion is murder, it is not at all the same as losing someone close to you. The fetus that is murdered is still an abstract to a child. To the poor Islamic kid in Mosul, his family blown to bits was not abstract in the least.

I am not a violent person, but were an invading army filling our streets, ther would be at least one more geurilla army of one in my neighborhood doing as much harm as it could to that enemy. The difference is that the threat is clear and present, not some abstract potential. In other words envorimnet is a major factor.

Oh, for the love of...

Look, when I ask for your definitions, it is not to be elusive. The whole point is that to my mind, you are using the term brainwashing to mean a whole range of things. If you want to think of watching the 700 Club as brainwashing - not saying you do, but if... - fine with me. If you want to think of total immersion terrorist indoctrination as brainwashing, I'll not argue. When you start using examples of "brainwashing" from all over the spectrum as if they were equivalent, then I feel it is fair to ask for definition of terms. In other words, to me, when you point to the church school in rural AMerica, complain it is brainwashing the kids, and then point to an out and out terrorist blow up any AMerican in sight praise Allah and say "SEE?" I don't think the parallel works.

Quote:
I don't require information on the Quran, I have a copy. Only in translation, but it gives the gist of it.


But from what I understand, it's not considered canonical. I apologize if I'm wrong on this.

The Koran is not to be translated - according to the tenets of Islam. It is God's word and should not be changed in any way. That is the deal. if we translate it, the message is still there intact, it just wouldn't be Kosher to a Muslim. Go to some orthodox Jewish discussion, and you will see "G_d" instead of "God." That because the name of God is not to be spoken or written. Same sort of thing.

If you want a translation, the Skeptics Annotated Bible site also has the Koran, and side notes typical of their point of view - the Skeptics, not the Muslims.

First of all, how is the knowledge of bomb use comparable to fully knowing the tenets of your faith?

Fully knowing the tenets of your faith make it easier to accept the martyrdom required of suicide bombing and the justification of killing infidels by other means.

Second of all, why would being a "trained soldier" suggest enlightenment in any other issue outside of warfare?

Trained soldier implies an adult mind, in contrast to a child who is made to act without really understanding what he is doing. The soldier is trained to obey his orders and not to question them, yes, but that does not mean the soldier doesn't think about it nor does it mean he is not aware of what he is doing.

[I Am He]

The very small children (baby's) in Japan during WWII were being shipped to the Countryside toward the end of the war. If I recall correctly, it was the Old Men with very young men (aka children) and Women that were being trained with long sharpened poles (and other such weapons) that they were to use in defense of their Homeland. But then again, that just might have been Propaganda Films they were showing us back then? I believe they are still using the same Footage today when they show those Documentaries about the Pacific War though.

[Heid the Ba]

Lonewulf you may well have a case for worry about Jesus Camps, but you don't make it well. You made sweeping statements and an emotional appeal and then backed it up with other sweeping statements and several tangents.

We should be discussing what you mean by brainwashing, whether this is possible, and whether it is happening; not child soldiers in Rwanda and whether the Quran can be translated.

I know this makes me sound like a patronising knobhead but I don't mean to be, but please sort out your thoughts and evidence and then make your case. If we have to wait until your college work calms down then fine, that is more important than any forum.

[Heid the Ba]

The very small children (baby's) in Japan during WWII were being shipped to the Countryside toward the end of the war. If I recall correctly, it was the Old Men with very young men (aka children) and Women that were being trained with long sharpened poles (and other such weapons) that they were to use in defense of their Homeland. But then again, that just might have been Propaganda Films they were showing us back then? I believe they are still using the same Footage today when they show those Documentaries about the Pacific War though.

I think I have seen this, the preparation for the defence of the home islands. If they had been invaded then the whole population would have been involved. A better example may have been the Hitler Jugend in Germany where boys of 12 and up were given weapons towards the end of the war.

I also suspect that we are inposing a C21st view of children onto the 1940s. In the UK in the 1940s it was possible to leave school at 15 and work in a factory or mine, I think it was possible to join the Home Guard at 16.

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf you may well have a case for worry about Jesus Camps, but you don't make it well. You made sweeping statements and an emotional appeal and then backed it up with other sweeping statements and several tangents.

We should be discussing what you mean by brainwashing, whether this is possible, and whether it is happening; not child soldiers in Rwanda and whether the Quran can be translated.

I know this makes me sound like a patronising knobhead but I don't mean to be, but please sort out your thoughts and evidence and then make your case. If we have to wait until your college work calms down then fine, that is more important than any forum.

I think I'm just going to give up altogether on forums. They're a waste of time.

And no, you're not a patronizing knobhead, you make a decent point. But I do nothing but end up looking the fool no matter where I go.

Maybe I am just simply a fool, and I should vanish like I want all other fools to vanish.

[Heid the Ba]

I'm just glad the intenet wasn't around 25 years ago when I was your age, FSM knows how I would have behaved.

Looking a fool and being a fool are two very different things, I still occasionally post stupid things, but I reduce the number by never posting when tired, angry or frustrated. I generally leave it a couple of hours before replying to anything contentious, I may still look like a fool, but at least I appear as a calm rational one.

As for abandoning us, would you rather look a fool here or in the real world? :D

[Dragon Star]

Lonewulf you may well have a case for worry about Jesus Camps, but you don't make it well. You made sweeping statements and an emotional appeal and then backed it up with other sweeping statements and several tangents.

We should be discussing what you mean by brainwashing, whether this is possible, and whether it is happening; not child soldiers in Rwanda and whether the Quran can be translated.

I know this makes me sound like a patronising knobhead but I don't mean to be, but please sort out your thoughts and evidence and then make your case. If we have to wait until your college work calms down then fine, that is more important than any forum.

I think I'm just going to give up altogether on forums. They're a waste of time.

And no, you're not a patronizing knobhead, you make a decent point. But I do nothing but end up looking the fool no matter where I go.

Maybe I am just simply a fool, and I should vanish like I want all other fools to vanish.

Oh cry me a river, everyone loves you. So STFU and teach me something, eh? :wink:

[Lonewulf]

I'm just glad the intenet wasn't around 25 years ago when I was your age, FSM knows how I would have behaved.

Looking a fool and being a fool are two very different things, I still occasionally post stupid things, but I reduce the number by never posting when tired, angry or frustrated. I generally leave it a couple of hours before replying to anything contentious, I may still look like a fool, but at least I appear as a calm rational one.

As for abandoning us, would you rather look a fool here or in the real world? :D

Heh. Thanks for that. You're right, on several things; including sitting and thinking. I think all the time, it's just that I don't think before I post. :)

I'd rather look the fool here, anyways.

Anyways, I know that what I'm saying sounds dubious, but it just seems common sense to me to think that children's values, ideas, and futures can be manipulated early on. That's mainly what I'm saying. And I'm also saying that clinic bombings *have* occurred in the past, and have precedent. This "Kids on Fire" group also seems to be practically saying that they are teaching kids to be terrorists in responce to the Islamic extremists (a radical group, I might add) and faith. A bit of the "tit for tat" type concept, but with abortion being a side-issue.

I guess someone can say that I'm overestimating them, but I might add that a few people can still cause damage... "radical groups" are usually those that do the damage.

[Bill_Thompson]

[Lance]

ROTFLMAO!

[umop ap!sdn]

I'm swiping that one!

[SciFi Chick]

I'm getting in on this a bit late, but I feel I have some relevant comments, especially since I used to be one of those brainwashed evangelicals.

I don't believe that the terrorists who are committing suicide are doing it strictly for religious purposes. I believe that they are convinced they have no other resources with which to achieve their goal. This makes them more dangerous.

When evangelicals are taught to be "warriors" for christ, it really is meant in a spiritual sense - i.e., battling satan and his demons, not other human beings. I realize it's easy to cross the line and end up shooting an abortion doctor when you have passionate feelings -- well, I say it's easy. I was never tempted to kill anyone. I actually believed that scripture which says, "Judge not for ye shall be judged." I figured God was big enough to judge them without my help.

They use war analogies in much the same way that a football team looks at the game like a war.

I happen to think fundamentalists are very scary, and I agree with KOS that under the right circumstances they, like many groups, could be as bad as Nazis. But I don't think they pose that much of a threat at the moment.

Of course, it doesn't hurt that one of the heroes of the movement has just been ousted from his church for buying methamphetamines and sex from a male prostitute.

There is also a widening backlash in the Republican party towards having their party taken over by fundamentalists.

A new book that was just published shows that President Bush isn't really one of them. He's just manipulated them to gain power.

So I can see why you would find people being brainwashed scary, but it's highly unlikely that they will have much of an impact on society at large for more than a short term period.

[Lance]

I actually believed that scripture which says, "Judge not for ye shall be judged." I figured God was big enough to judge them without my help.

Don't some of them justify their actions by claiming to be the tool through which God dispenses his justice? And once you make a leap like that, you can pretty much convince yourself anything you do is okay.

[SciFi Chick]

I actually believed that scripture which says, "Judge not for ye shall be judged." I figured God was big enough to judge them without my help.

Don't some of them justify their actions by claiming to be the tool through which God dispenses his justice? And once you make a leap like that, you can pretty much convince yourself anything you do is okay.

I personally haven't seen that anywhere except in fiction. That might be the justification on the part of those people who have attacked abortion clinics, but I haven't seen any other terrorist acts out of American fundamentalists. Are there some I'm unaware of?

[Lance]

Are there some I'm unaware of?

Not that I can think of but this isn't somthing I [strike]give a real rat's ass about[/strike] pay close attention too. I just thought I'd heard that somewhere. Maybe it was from fiction.

[Мастер]

Don't some of them justify their actions by claiming to be the tool through which God dispenses his justice? And once you make a leap like that, you can pretty much convince yourself anything you do is okay.

I believe there is an Illinois court case in which God-told-me-to-do-it was found not to be a valid murder defense. . .

[Lance]

Don't some of them justify their actions by claiming to be the tool through which God dispenses his justice? And once you make a leap like that, you can pretty much convince yourself anything you do is okay.

I believe there is an Illinois court case in which God-told-me-to-do-it was found not to be a valid murder defense. . .

Yeah, that sounds familiar.

I was thinking a person with such justification would consider themselves "above the law" regardless of how the law looks upon them.

[Мастер]

Don't some of them justify their actions by claiming to be the tool through which God dispenses his justice? And once you make a leap like that, you can pretty much convince yourself anything you do is okay.

I believe there is an Illinois court case in which God-told-me-to-do-it was found not to be a valid murder defense. . .

Yeah, that sounds familiar.

I was thinking a person with such justification would consider themselves "above the law" regardless of how the law looks upon them.

I'm not sure if it was a general ruling, that divine instructions are not recognized as above the law of the state of Illinois, or a finding of fact, that no divine instruction had been issued in this case :P