Burning the U.S. Flag?

[DrPostman]

Well, I do happen to be a vet. In fact, I am a disabled vet. But I
do not see a pressing need to have a constitutional amendment at
this time. Where is the problem? Has there been a rash of flag
burning recently, other than in the Arab world? There is nothing
we can do about that except observe that they never burn their
own flags, in spite of hating the dictatorships that run most of
their countries.

No, this is a blatant attempt to stir up support for a bunch of
assholes who want to keep us in a war that we don't belong in.
For the record, I was all for Afghanistan, and for fighting Al-Queda,
but we had no business messing with Iraq. Republicans obviously
think their supporters are stupid enough to fall for this. I don't
care much for Democrats either, but right now I am very unhappy
with a single political party having control over two branches and
significant influence over the third. That simply sets up an arrogance
of power that has seen quite a few scandals lately.

Jamie

[St. Jimmy]

I am going to be lazy and not read the 4 pages about this, so if this is a repeat of what anyone has already said, sorry.

Flag Burning is not right. The only time a flag should be burned is when it is no longer fit to serve it's purpose. (ex. If it is tattered and torn from flying in a storm, if it is faded, etc.) But that falg burning needs to be done in the proper flag burning ceremony that is done currently. But burning a flag to desecrate it, is just not right. It's not just a symbol of your country, but a symbol of everything this country originally stood for. It's a symbol for all those who died and shed their blood and tears for this country. It's a symbol of everything this country has ever accomplished. It's a symbol of why you live in this country. If you want to burn this country's flag to desecrate it, take a vacation to another country and do it there. Or even better, just move to another country.

~The patriotic Jimmy

[Enzo]

Jimmy, perhaps you could take a couple minutes and read the four whole pages. Lots of us feel that flag burning is wrong. The argument is about whether there should be a constitutional amendment to ban it, not whether we like it or not. I think Nazis are wrong too, but I believe they have a right to state their opinion.

[ToSeek]

I'd like to ask a few questions. How many of you anti Flag burners ever served in the Armed Forces?? How many have been in actual combat?? Where do you think that your freedom of speech came free?? Many of us that have participated in combat hated every minute of it. We cursed the Brass the Top Kicks, Congress the President and everybody else. But I tell you one thing, I've never seen anyone curse the Flag. If you think it's freedom of speech to burn the Flag, then I got news for you, you are spitting on all the guy that fought for that flag. Not your misguided dislike of our government. You are spitting on people that have nothing to do with the government. So nit pick all you want, Flag burning is a Crime, with a Capital "C" and none of this shit about the Flag being a two dollar piece of canvas that you can burn at will holds water. I could go on, but it's bring back to many bad memories, and I might get thrown out of the Group if I do.

I hope you fought for something a little more significant than the Flag, like, say, the Bill of Rights.

I wouldn't burn an American flag nor support anyone who did, but I do support the principle of free speech upon which the act would depend. And I've never understood the argument, "I fought for your freedom of speech, so shut up!"

[St. Jimmy]

Jimmy, perhaps you could take a couple minutes and read the four whole pages. Lots of us feel that flag burning is wrong. The argument is about whether there should be a constitutional amendment to ban it, not whether we like it or not. I think Nazis are wrong too, but I believe they have a right to state their opinion.

hmmm maybe I should read it. I was feeling pretty lazy and tired when I was posted that.

[Bill_Thompson]

Shouldn't we be allowed to burn the flag after Marylin Manson has wiped his ass with it?

[Lance]

Yeah, and Marilyn Manson with it.

[woowoo]

Yeah, and Marilyn Manson with it.

The flag can be washed... twice. Marilyn manson can go do that therapy crap that they have on opera.

[Lance]

LOL

True.

[umop ap!sdn]

Your post looks funny underneath woowoo's signature. :D

To those who see such an amendment as being for the good of those who would violate it, I offer the suggestion that this is the same kind of thought process that prompted lawyers to argue for a CAUTION: CONTENTS MAY BE VERY HOT label on cups of coffee so that some dipstick doesn't sue McDonalds over a scalded tongue. (Or "may contain nuts" on a bag of peanuts so that some numbskull doesn't sue the airline company over an allergic reaction, etc.)

Just sayin'. ;)

[Bill_Thompson]

He only tried the stunt once.

Supporters said it was the only thing near by and he would have wiped his ass with a band member if he was close enough.

[Lonewulf]

I'd like to ask a few questions. How many of you anti Flag burners ever served in the Armed Forces?? How many have been in actual combat?? Where do you think that your freedom of speech came free?? Many of us that have participated in combat hated every minute of it. We cursed the Brass the Top Kicks, Congress the President and everybody else. But I tell you one thing, I've never seen anyone curse the Flag. If you think it's freedom of speech to burn the Flag, then I got news for you, you are spitting on all the guy that fought for that flag. Not your misguided dislike of our government. You are spitting on people that have nothing to do with the government. So nit pick all you want, Flag burning is a Crime, with a Capital "C" and none of this shit about the Flag being a two dollar piece of canvas that you can burn at will holds water. I could go on, but it's bring back to many bad memories, and I might get thrown out of the Group if I do.

Yes, you find it distasteful, so it should be a crime with a capital "C". That makes sense. Uh huh.

I'm still rolling my eyes and laughing. It's a fucking symbol. I accidentally broke a cross when I was younger and not an atheist... does that mean that I hated the church because I accidentally destroyed their symbol?

The rhetoric and emotionally-charged stupidity of this argument is beyond silly.

[Lonewulf]

That's exactly how I see it. I never served in the service but my father, my brother, and my brother-in-law are all veterans. It is disrespectful IMHO, to all veterans who serve their country and their families that live in fear that their loved ones will die in service to their country. I don't want to see the flag treated in any way but respect. That's how I was raised and its a part of my value system.

And what you consider "tasteful" should go into law, because that's how you were raised.

Well, I consider it tasteful to not disrespect the elderly. Perhaps that should go into the amendment.

Oh, and talking bad about homosexuals... we can't allow that!

How about one that actually pertains to the situation...

What if I DON'T like the U.S. Government? What if I dislike the two party system? What if I think the entire things needs an overhaul, or at least a facelift? And if I don't, but can still nonetheless tolerate someone who does? Should they be banned from such an opinion in that case, because it's "disrespectful"?

What about expressing an opinion in the first place?

Making a law because of personal ideas of what should be considered "respectful" or not is ludicrous. For instance, what about the bit about it being disrespectful to wear the flag? Oh, whoops, we changed our mind... well, so much for fining or punishing those people legally.

Guess I can expect the torrents and waves of mind-changers to constantly decide how I should act.

Quite frankly, there is no scarcity of flags. There is plenty to go around. It's mass-produced and sold to everyone. There's a neighbor nearby that held a flag out even through the rain, and didn't take it down; it looked grungy and dirty-looking. I guess HE should have been fined for daring to send the message that he loved his nation, because he did it in the wrong way.

This is why I can't treat the argument, or the arguers with respect. It's all a crock of bullshit. Once again, the main reason it's even come up is so politicians can try to buy sentiment (and thus votes) and rile people up over a rarity.

You want to talk about "patriotism"? Why not oppose something that MATTERS to the country, like poverty or an actual IMPORTANT issue? Because burning a mass-produced symbol is certainly far more important!

Nonetheless, I shouldn't let "I Am He"s rantings to get to me. He's already shown himself to be logically imprecise before. :)


Oh, one last comment, to touch upon the last time I posted in this thread (I stopped posting in here as I knew I was pissing some people off, and REALLY couldn't respect them or their viewpoints at all)...

Anyone who thinks someone should be arrested for burning a flag because it's an "incite to riot" should actually look the term up. It's a ludicrous assessment, and I would expect better of anyone who makes the claim.

[Enzo]

You know, I don't have to agree with you LW to respect your position. I might think you are dead wrong, but I will accept that it is what you sincerely think.

You on the other hand seem to be going out of your way to show disdain for any position other than your own. Your last post there is just sarcastic ranting. WHy should any of us respect THAT?

This is why I can't treat the argument, or the arguers with respect. It's all a crock of bullshit. Once again, the main reason it's even come up is so politicians can try to buy sentiment (and thus votes) and rile people up over a rarity.

Those are strong words. Bullshit is generally used to mean something someone makes up and knows not to be the case but says anyway. Similar to a lie but not as strong a term. By calling the argument bullshit you are accusing anyone who holds that position of not being sincere. DO you really think Teri Tait doesn't feel the way she says she does? Or anyone else for that matter? The fact that politicians are cynical enough to use the issue to get votes is one thing. But it has nothing to do with the fact that many people genuinely feel strongly about it. Or are they all just making it up to piss YOU off.

As I said before, whether you or I feel this way, a great many people feel the flag is something special. There are many other things that we feel are worthy too, but the flag is special. Maybe not to you, but to many of us.

perhaps nothing is special to you, if that is so, then so be it. Maybe you think your mother is special, at least to you. But hell, she's just some woman, there are mothers all over the place, no shortage of them. SO you wouldn't mind if we all ranted about yours in various negative ways I won't go into.

Your neighbor with the ratty flag? he should be approached by someone and told that the disrespectful flag display is offensive to many of us. I will leave it to you to arrest him. When I drive down the street and I see a ratty flag, I do indeed stop, go into the place and speak to the manager. I don't rant and rave and spew sarcasm, I just politely tell him his flag is in poor shape and perhaps he hadn't noticed it. I have told businesses that I would rather see no flag than a rag with stripes. But that's just me, you don't care about stuff, so go over and join your neighbor in saluting a faded image.

[teri tait]

That's exactly how I see it. I never served in the service but my father, my brother, and my brother-in-law are all veterans. It is disrespectful IMHO, to all veterans who serve their country and their families that live in fear that their loved ones will die in service to their country. I don't want to see the flag treated in any way but respect. That's how I was raised and its a part of my value system.

And what you consider "tasteful" should go into law, because that's how you were raised.

Well, I consider it tasteful to not disrespect the elderly. Perhaps that should go into the amendment.

Oh, and talking bad about homosexuals... we can't allow that!

How about one that actually pertains to the situation...

What if I DON'T like the U.S. Government? What if I dislike the two party system? What if I think the entire things needs an overhaul, or at least a facelift? And if I don't, but can still nonetheless tolerate someone who does? Should they be banned from such an opinion in that case, because it's "disrespectful"?

What about expressing an opinion in the first place?

Making a law because of personal ideas of what should be considered "respectful" or not is ludicrous. For instance, what about the bit about it being disrespectful to wear the flag? Oh, whoops, we changed our mind... well, so much for fining or punishing those people legally.

Guess I can expect the torrents and waves of mind-changers to constantly decide how I should act.

Quite frankly, there is no scarcity of flags. There is plenty to go around. It's mass-produced and sold to everyone. There's a neighbor nearby that held a flag out even through the rain, and didn't take it down; it looked grungy and dirty-looking. I guess HE should have been fined for daring to send the message that he loved his nation, because he did it in the wrong way.

This is why I can't treat the argument, or the arguers with respect. It's all a crock of bullshit. Once again, the main reason it's even come up is so politicians can try to buy sentiment (and thus votes) and rile people up over a rarity.

You want to talk about "patriotism"? Why not oppose something that MATTERS to the country, like poverty or an actual IMPORTANT issue? Because burning a mass-produced symbol is certainly far more important!

Nonetheless, I shouldn't let "I Am He"s rantings to get to me. He's already shown himself to be logically imprecise before. :)


Oh, one last comment, to touch upon the last time I posted in this thread (I stopped posting in here as I knew I was pissing some people off, and REALLY couldn't respect them or their viewpoints at all)...

Anyone who thinks someone should be arrested for burning a flag because it's an "incite to riot" should actually look the term up. It's a ludicrous assessment, and I would expect better of anyone who makes the claim.

What a narrow world you live in. Don't expect any respect for your point of view if you're not willing to extend the same courtesy.

I'll get back to you when you've learned some manners and how to debate like a grownup. Until then, don't bother acknowledging anything I post in this thread or any other, please.

[Lonewulf]

You know, I don't have to agree with you LW to respect your position. I might think you are dead wrong, but I will accept that it is what you sincerely think.

You on the other hand seem to be going out of your way to show disdain for any position other than your own. Your last post there is just sarcastic ranting. WHy should any of us respect THAT?

I'm tired of trying to garner respect, honestly. People have already disrespected people with my viewpiont...

Apparently, if you go by I Am He's post, I can't know anything about patriotism if I don't think that burning the flag should be illegal. He's also made quite a few statements to the character of people with my mindset... he disrespects me, it's okay because people agree with him, but it's wrong for me to disrespect others because my views go against the bulk of population.

I'll have you all know that my grandfather served in WWII, and he served as a tank commander. He fought hard for this country, and I don't think that allowing people to speak their mind about the U.S. and attacking a simple symbol is disrespecting his memory. I also think that you don't need to pick up a gun and gun down someone in another country to have any sort of respect, and I think that you can easily work for the better of your country even without serving in the military. I mean, don't get me wrong, I respect those that do serve in the military, and someday I may join the Air Force (but not the Army... I don't like the Army), and may someday put my life down for my country. But a country doesn't run by an army alone, yet some "college brat" can't have as good an opinion as someone who served in the Army, I guess...

People like "I Am He" piss me off, because he's 100% filled with "MORE PATRIOTIC THAN THOU!" rhetoric. When I see posts like him, I just can't respect the argument anymore. If I do have a narrow mind in this issue, then I'm definitely not the only one.

Those are strong words. Bullshit is generally used to mean something someone makes up and knows not to be the case but says anyway. Similar to a lie but not as strong a term. By calling the argument bullshit you are accusing anyone who holds that position of not being sincere. DO you really think Teri Tait doesn't feel the way she says she does? Or anyone else for that matter? The fact that politicians are cynical enough to use the issue to get votes is one thing. But it has nothing to do with the fact that many people genuinely feel strongly about it. Or are they all just making it up to piss YOU off.

Actually, if something just plain doesn't make sense, and people only follow it out of some sense of pure patriotism, I'd still call it bullshit. Maybe I should broaden my vocabulary to also tackle illogical patriotism.

And claiming that I'm claiming they all just make it up to piss me off is ridiculous, and rather illogical. You are drawing a ton of inference from the use of one word, and trying to make it sound like it was my entire argument. You're usually a logical man, Enzo, and in this case, you're trying to be, but you're slipping.

As I said before, whether you or I feel this way, a great many people feel the flag is something special. There are many other things that we feel are worthy too, but the flag is special. Maybe not to you, but to many of us.

I think the ideal of the U.S. transcends a simple symbol, and that not everything hinges upon that symbol. Many seem to think that if you allow people to burn the U.S. flag, somehow it will destroy what the U.S. actually is about (like the politicians haven't already somewhat succeeded in that)

perhaps nothing is special to you, if that is so, then so be it. Maybe you think your mother is special, at least to you. But hell, she's just some woman, there are mothers all over the place, no shortage of them. SO you wouldn't mind if we all ranted about yours in various negative ways I won't go into.

Now this is the thing: I haven't ranted about the flag itself. Maybe I insulted those that think that those that burn the flag should be legally prosecuted... but that's a different issue. That's like me saying that people that insult my mother should be punished by law.

Quite frankly, the U.S. was built upon the idea that no one is beyond question... including the U.S. Government, including the President of the U.S.A. If I wanted to make fun of the government or the president, there is nothing to stop me; why is attacking a mass produced symbol any different, and why should it be treated differently? The symbol is not a rarity, and burning the flag is not "dangerous" to anyone. I see no reason to legislate this. Feel disgusted at the burning of the flag all you want, but when you start legislating people for attacking symbols, you start to enter shakey ground.

Your neighbor with the ratty flag? he should be approached by someone and told that the disrespectful flag display is offensive to many of us. I will leave it to you to arrest him. When I drive down the street and I see a ratty flag, I do indeed stop, go into the place and speak to the manager. I don't rant and rave and spew sarcasm, I just politely tell him his flag is in poor shape and perhaps he hadn't noticed it. I have told businesses that I would rather see no flag than a rag with stripes. But that's just me, you don't care about stuff, so go over and join your neighbor in saluting a faded image.

Yet the argument here isn't talking to someone in a respectful way.

The argument here is over legislating punishing someone for how they treat the flag. Quite frankly, what are we going to say? That burning the flag is disrespectful and should be punished, but disrespecting it in any other way is hunkey dory? I'm sorry if I don't concede any kind of point here.

What a narrow world you live in. Don't expect any respect for your point of view if you're not willing to extend the same courtesy.

No offence, but I've come to not care whether you respect me or not when I came to see how you are. You claim that you're a republican because you want less laws, but you see no problem passing laws left and right to force people to "show respect". Sorry, but why should I care if those I have NO respect for at all respect me or not?

I'll get back to you when you've learned some manners and how to debate like a grownup. Until then, don't bother acknowledging anything I post in this thread or any other, please.

Sorry, you can't control what I acknowledge or what I do not do. Further, I really don't care whether you acknowledge what I say or what I do not; I have too much fatigue dealing with people to really care anymore.

Quite frankly, I don't care if I'm burning bridges in the I.R.U. anymore. It's just not a fun place to hang out at.

[Lance]

Hey Lonewulf;

I'm not sure you're making your case in a way that is clear to everyone. But I think I know what you're saying, and quite frankly, have a good point. Let me try and paraphrase you, or put it another way. Tell me if this fits your point of view...


If I burn a plain, white 3' x 5' piece of nylon cloth, no one cares.

If I burn a 3' x 5' piece of nylon cloth that has a Green Bay Packers logo on it, and I do it in Soldier Field (Chicago), I will get cheered and a lot of people will yell Woof! Woof! Woof! But it was still just a 3' x 5' hunk of nylon and it's silly, because I just burned up some synthetic fibers. I didn't actually destroy the Packers.

So when someone burns up a 3' x 5' piece of nylon cloth that just happenes to have some red stripes and a blue field in the corner, it's silly to believe they are actually hurting anything than just the piece of cloth. What the symbol stands for is left unharmed by the act of destroying the medium that bears it.

Is this what you're saying, more or less?

[Lonewulf]

Hey Lonewulf;

I'm not sure you're making your case in a way that is clear to everyone. But I think I know what you're saying, and quite frankly, have a good point. Let me try and paraphrase you, or put it another way. Tell me if this fits your point of view...


If I burn a plain, white 3' x 5' piece of nylon cloth, no one cares.

If I burn a 3' x 5' piece of nylon cloth that has a Green Bay Packers logo on it, and I do it in Soldier Field (Chicago), I will get cheered and a lot of people will yell Woof! Woof! Woof! But it was still just a 3' x 5' hunk of nylon and it's silly, because I just burned up some synthetic fibers. I didn't actually destroy the Packers.

So when someone burns up a 3' x 5' piece of nylon cloth that just happenes to have some red stripes and a blue field in the corner, it's silly to believe they are actually hurting anything than just the piece of cloth. What the symbol stands for is left unharmed by the act of destroying the medium that bears it.

Is this what you're saying, more or less?

Yes, exactly. I don't view it as any more an act of desecration than claiming that you dislike the U.S. government... which is protected by the Bill of Rights.

I'm also ranting a bit because of posts such as "I Am He" posted... the whole "More Patriotic Than Thou" stance. Nothing riles me up like one o' those. Plus, Teri Tait seems to be claiming that because she was raised to find it "disrespectful", it should be legislated against... which I find hypocritical and rather silly. We should no more legislate respect than we should opinion, you know what I mean?

One more thing: If you should ban flag burning because it "might" incite a riot, then you should ban burning ANY symbol of ANY denomination, because in the right situation, you might just incite a riot. That reasoning is entirely ridiculous.

[teri tait]

LONEWULF, I ALREADY TOLD YOU YOU CAN SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT ME. THE WAY I WAS RAISED REFLECTS MY VIEWPOINT, NO ONE ELSES. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS BUT STAY THE FUCK OFF ME, BITCH.

[Bandit]

I think this whole thing could have been avoided if 2 people - Lonewulf and I am He - settled on expressing an opinion and/or attacking a particular POV without the extra bullshit. To spell it out for you two: I am He, I didn't serve in the military. That doesn't mean my opinion carries less weight than yours or anyone else's that served. Lonewulf, if all you can do is come across as a cynical ass at the expense of other posters then take your lame James Dean-wannabe act elsewhere.

[Dragon Star]

Everyone needs to calm down a bit, we can have debate like adults or we can be a bunch of bitching babies, so far it's the later. If you can't control your personal attacks, leave the thread, there is no need for it. Stop using the subject as a door to attack from, because clearly that's what is going on.

[Bandit]

Everyone needs to calm down a bit, we can have debate like adults or we can be a bunch of bitching babies, so far it's the later. If you can't control your personal attacks, leave the thread, there is no need for it. Stop using the subject as a door to attack from, because clearly that's what is going on.

There was never really a debate here in the first place .. just a couple of unfortunate soapboxes.
I actually would have stayed out of the latest excitement but after reading Teri's post (and not really blaming her for it) I figured I'd try to summarize things. :wink:

People (you included Dragon Star) can take it or leave it.

[Doe, John]

this is the same kind of thought process that prompted lawyers to argue for a CAUTION: CONTENTS MAY BE VERY HOT label on cups of coffee so that some dipstick doesn't sue McDonalds over a scalded tongue.

just as a thread derailing diversion I'd like to point out that it was a woman of the feminine persuasion who (successfully) sued McDonalds when she spilled coffee in her crotch and blistered her naughty bits.

edited to add this link

[Dragon Star]

Everyone needs to calm down a bit, we can have debate like adults or we can be a bunch of bitching babies, so far it's the later. If you can't control your personal attacks, leave the thread, there is no need for it. Stop using the subject as a door to attack from, because clearly that's what is going on.

There was never really a debate here in the first place .. just a couple of unfortunate soapboxes.
I actually would have stayed out of the latest excitement but after reading Teri's post (and not really blaming her for it) I figured I'd try to summarize things. :wink:

People (you included Dragon Star) can take it or leave it.

I agree, that's why I jumped on the wagon, it was getting way out of hand. I have no beef with anyone in this thread, but enough is enough. :)

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf, if all you can do is come across as a cynical ass at the expense of other posters then take your lame James Dean-wannabe act elsewhere.

Is that "all" I can do? So, what, I didn't make a single good point in all this?

Maybe Lance was just "pretending" to think I might've had a point... not claiming he's immediately right for thinking I had a point, just that I had far more in my post than "a lame James Dean-wannabe act"... acting like I actually want to be James Dean. Hell, I hardly even know much about James Dean, except that he's some icon from the past -- how can I "wannabe" like someone I don't even know much about? Claiming that I was "just" showing off my "James Dean-wannabe act" is like me claiming you were just showing off your damn temper was the "only" thing you did in the BAUT. I'm not saying you were wrong or right, just pointing out that, in spite of our tone or how we act, there might actually be a grain of argument within it.

I admit that I was a little too aggressive (and personal, especially) in my posts, but that doesn't mean I didn't mean what I said.