President Donald J. Trump

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:10 am

Game over.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Blue Monster 65 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:47 pm

This “patriot” problem will persist even when he’s gone, though: the bullshit machine has gone into overdrive. Just this morning I saw obviously heavily edited video of the woman who claimed to have evidence of voter fraud in McConnell’s election being used to “prove” voter fraud in GA. The replies were all supportive (it was a MAGA thread) and saying, “See? We knew it!” How do you get thru to people who so blindly want to follow that sort of nonsense?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:29 pm

Most likely, you can't, unless you tell them what they want to hear.

But, as of today, there is no path for Trump to be re-elected, not even an incredibly improbably one. If credible evidence comes out today that everyone voted for Trump and every single Biden vote was fraudulent in all 50 states (and DC), it doesn't matter. There is no mechanism to change the election outcome at this point. The only thing that can be done is to impeach Biden, which makes Kamala Harris president, not Trump. (And if you think Biden should be impeached because he was fraudulently elected, then presumably you would think Kamala Harris was also fraudulently elected and should be impeached. That makes Nancy Pelosi acting president, unless the house chooses someone else as their speaker - have they already re-elected her? I saw her speaking on the electric television today.)

But the thing that strikes me is, there has always been someone like Trump. The details differ, but there are always loony toons out there. It used to be, hardly anyone would vote for them. Now, more than 45% seem to support a loony toon. That's the issue to me. If Trump runs away and is never heard from again, I'm not sure it really changes things all that much - maybe they'll just find another loony toon. And perhaps one who doesn't have such a revolting personality, and therefore may have broader appeal.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:34 pm

So, it looks like they managed to get a whopping 7.07% of the senate to vote for the Pennsylvania challenge, but more than 25% of the house. I'm surprised it was that much in the house.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:41 pm

And from this article,

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/01 ... dates.html

they mention that a member of the house (a Kansas Republican, who voted in favour of the challenge against Arizona's electoral votes) tested positive for Covid. They go on to note

It surely won’t be the last case among lawmakers and everyone else who spent time in the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday and couldn’t possibly have followed all the appropriate coronavirus precautions during a literal mob scene and sudden evacuation.


The other thing I'm inclined to mention is, even if they did follow all the appropriate precautions, it doesn't guarantee that there won't be any further cases.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Enzo » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:39 pm

We haven't had armed insurrection inside our Capitol since 1812.

I am kinda tired of the talking heads on TV telling us people like Hawley and Cruz are smart people, they went to Harvard and Yale and who knows where else. Yeah well, you can get a degree from HArvard, but that doesn't mean you have good common sense, personal ethics, or wisdom.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Blue Monster 65 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:48 pm

Мастер wrote:Most likely, you can't, unless you tell them what they want to hear.


This, unfortunately, is true and borne out by many studies.

Мастер wrote:But, as of today, there is no path for Trump to be re-elected, not even an incredibly improbably one. If credible evidence comes out today that everyone voted for Trump and every single Biden vote was fraudulent in all 50 states (and DC), it doesn't matter. There is no mechanism to change the election outcome at this point.


Right - I should have known this was what you were taking about, not just the madness at the capital yesterday. Sorry to jump the gun, but thank you for the additional comments.

Мастер wrote:But the thing that strikes me is, there has always been someone like Trump. The details differ, but there are always loony toons out there. It used to be, hardly anyone would vote for them. Now, more than 45% seem to support a loony toon. That's the issue to me. If Trump runs away and is never heard from again, I'm not sure it really changes things all that much - maybe they'll just find another loony toon. And perhaps one who doesn't have such a revolting personality, and therefore may have broader appeal.


I agree wholeheartedly! I've said it before: the next time they won't be as buffoonish.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:08 pm

Enzo wrote:We haven't had armed insurrection inside our Capitol since 1812.


I’m thinking you’re referring to something that happened in 1814, and that was not an insurrection - it was a raid by a foreign military, partly retaliating for American destruction of private property in Canada.

People still seem a little prickly about that.

https://www.google.com.sg/amp/s/www.the ... ning-tweet

They seem a lot less worried about the US military destroying buildings in other countries’ capitals, although you don’t have to go back 207 years to find examples of that.

Enzo wrote:I am kinda tired of the talking heads on TV telling us people like Hawley and Cruz are smart people, they went to Harvard and Yale and who knows where else. Yeah well, you can get a degree from HArvard, but that doesn't mean you have good common sense, personal ethics, or wisdom.


I think we must watch different television channels.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:42 pm

Blue Monster 65 wrote:I agree wholeheartedly! I've said it before: the next time they won't be as buffoonish.

The thought of a Trump, but competent, is what keeps me awake at night.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:45 pm

There is still the next two weeks and the inauguration to come. Crazies are already trotting out the "antifa did it" defense. They are still decrying the results of the election; hell, some folks around here still have Trump flags and signs up even though they've already taken down their Christmas lights. This insurrection was not an attempt to thwart the process via legal, political, or peaceful means. Trump, for his part, has finally said he would acquiesce in the mildest possible terms, all the while maintaining that he won the election and without condemning the insurrection. He all but gave them a pat on the back. Schumer wants Trump's cabinet to do something. Trump's cabinet is wholly inept and apathetic, and I suspect that they are hoping congress does something, instead. So, Trump stays in power for now. There's nothing so far that I've seen or heard that has me convinced that the insurrectionists are now going to shrug their shoulders and say "Well, we tried."

The Onion just ran a piece about Serbia deploying peace-keeping troops to America. By God, we might just need them.

EDIT: The Onion article actually ran in 2000. Words escape me in so many ways right now.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:29 am

Some WH staff and a couple of Cabinet members have and are resigning. The latest, which is sure to warm the hackles of a few hearts here, is Betsy DeVos. The American Federation of Teachers president Randi Weingarten released a statement in response.
Good riddance.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:25 am

MM_Dandy wrote:Some WH staff and a couple of Cabinet members have and are resigning.


It seems that that would reduce the likelihood of a premature exit via the 25th amendment.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Halcyon Dayz, FCD » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:02 am

Мастер wrote:
MM_Dandy wrote:Some WH staff and a couple of Cabinet members have and are resigning.


It seems that that would reduce the likelihood of a premature exit via the 25th amendment.

Section 4 states: "the principal officers of the executive departments," not "secretaries."
That might mean whoever is left in charge.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:56 am

Halcyon Dayz, FCD wrote:Section 4 states: "the principal officers of the executive departments," not "secretaries."
That might mean whoever is left in charge.


Fair enough, but it seems to me, the people who choose to resign, are precisely the people who are most likely to remove El Donaldo. Those who stay, whether they be the regular appointees or acting officials, are probably less likely to remove him, than those who stay.

The amendment also allows the congress to specify by law which officers should be required, but guess who has to sign the laws? So if congress passed a new law today specifying which people could invoke the 25th, the president can sit on it for ten days, then veto it at the last minute, so that congress would have to override the veto. Today is 8 January, so even if they act faster than they ever have before, this mechanism might get Trump out maybe about 30 minutes early :)
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:57 am

$750 billion per year in defence spending, and Duck Dynasty managed to take over the centre of government.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:55 am

What gets to me is how the security forces showed admirable restraint in using force to remove the intruders. Well I didn't know they were mentally equipped to do that. In summer, during the BLM protests, I learned that American police have come to view citizens as enemy combattants because anyone was liable, at any timne to attack them with a Magnum or, for that matter, with AR-15. Therefore, no-one knew how de-escalation strategies could work.

My interpretation is, if these intruders had been BLM activist, you could have scraped their remains from the pavement a mile away from Congress, but since these people are good, Christian, white patriots, you have to politely escort them out of the building and call a taxi for them so thay make curfew time.

Did anyone cry institutionalized racism? I'm shocked.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Blue Monster 65 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:52 pm

Мастер wrote:$750 billion per year in defence spending, and Duck Dynasty managed to take over the centre of government.

May I quote you with this? You’ve hit the nail on the head, or so it seems.

The problem is, while they appeal to the lowest common denominator, they themselves are not quite as they seem. They then use that appeal to their Machiavellian interests. And so it goes, on and on.

Arneb - that’s been pointed out many, many times, and I’m afraid you are correct, sir. However, I wonder if the next time they attempt this sort of thing if the outcome will be very, very different. I’m afraid it might be.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:26 pm

Blue Monster 65 wrote:
Мастер wrote:$750 billion per year in defence spending, and Duck Dynasty managed to take over the centre of government.

May I quote you with this? You’ve hit the nail on the head, or so it seems.


As I pinched it from something I saw on FaceBook, I don't feel I am able to exercise proprietary rights to this. So if you steal it, you are stealing it from someone other than me :)
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:29 pm

The Pissed Off and Angry Party

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5B5DzTvANM
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:35 pm

Мастер wrote:
Halcyon Dayz, FCD wrote:Section 4 states: "the principal officers of the executive departments," not "secretaries."
That might mean whoever is left in charge.


Fair enough, but it seems to me, the people who choose to resign, are precisely the people who are most likely to remove El Donaldo. Those who stay, whether they be the regular appointees or acting officials, are probably less likely to remove him, than those who stay.


I agree, but it's a moot point. If I have the timeline correct, VP Pence, in response to the demands from congress, had already made statements to the effect that he wouldn't invoke or sign off on any invocation of the 25th amendment. So, yay for them, I guess. Regardless, resigning now reminds me of a joke I heard from Jeff Foxworthy ribbing his wife about her offering to drive the last few minutes of an all-day trip.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:50 pm

Oh, I forgot why I actually came on in the first place. I haven't seen it, yet, but Trump gave a speech yesterday in which he actually conceded the presidential election, and called the insurrection a "heinous attack." Apparently, online right-wing nutjobs are losing their minds over it.

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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Arneb » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:10 pm

What is a "pede", if I may ask?
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:18 pm

MM_Dandy wrote:
Мастер wrote:I agree, but it's a moot point. If I have the timeline correct, VP Pence, in response to the demands from congress, had already made statements to the effect that he wouldn't invoke or sign off on any invocation of the 25th amendment. So, yay for them, I guess. Regardless, resigning now reminds me of a joke I heard from Jeff Foxworthy ribbing his wife about her offering to drive the last few minutes of an all-day trip.


Lack of vice-presidential support is, if I understand correctly, an insurmountable obstacle to invocation of the 25th. I guess Trump didn’t propose that he and Melania (or Ivanka) would do swapsies with the Pences.

So if Pence is not on board, then it would seem impeachment is the only path to early exit. Which makes sense for Pence, even if he’s turned on by Melania, because 25th invocation only makes him acting president. To get the pension, he needs to be real president, not acting president.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby MM_Dandy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:23 pm

Arneb wrote:What is a "pede", if I may ask?

In this context, I have no idea. I've only ever heard of it used as short-hand for 'pedophile.'

I haven't heard any more about Pence refusing to go along with a 25th A scenario, and in fact, most media outlets that I follow are treating it as though it were still on the table. My source was an NPR interview with Representative Ilhan Omar. She was asked about the timeline and how long the House might wait for a response from Pence when she disclosed that she had just learned that Pence had refused. Later, I learned that this was about the same time that reports came of Pelosi and Schumer gave up trying to contact Pence after waiting 25 minutes on hold. So, Pence may not have actually refused. Well, he's refusing, but not saying so. Either way, fuck him.

EDIT: "Pede" or "centipede," apparently, is what Trump supporters on Reddit call themselves. And that's as much as I care to know about that.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump

Postby Мастер » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:01 am

So now there are voices saying that the cabinet members have resigned precisely to avoid having to make the 25th amendment call, which is a bit of a different interpretation than I described earlier.
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