SNP wars

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SNP wars

Postby Richard A » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:57 pm

Interesting, no posts from Heid or Lianachan over the latest round in the Salmond-Sturgeon fight. I hope things calm down enough before May. There was a headline going around saying that the Tory leader had said Sturgeon can't survive this. Well, when the Tories treat Keir Starmer or Ian Blackford as an authoritative voice on BoJo's future, we can take their views on this seriously. But as someone from south of the border who wishes the independence cause well, it's not great timing.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Arneb » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:58 am

Read the stories in disbelief. You know, these people always came across as so reasonable.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Richard A » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:01 am

I haven't read the latest round - on Sturgeon's (alleged) actions. But what I have seen plenty of on other social media platforms is the English right laying into the SNP at every opportunity - not just on this but on their handling of the pandemic (no complaints about Wales shutting the border, but how dare these Scots separatists do it!), education and, what this is really about, the ongoing campaign for independence. The irony of the very people who were at the forefront of the Brexit campaign (and in many cases going on to fight for the breakup of the European Union entirely) being also passionate defenders of the union of the United Kingdom has often been commented on, but doesn't appear to have stopped them.

If Sturgeon is forced to resign, as many headlines say she may be, it would be interesting to hear from Heid and Lianachan who they think would make a good replacement. Ian Blackford (for non-Brits, the SNP leader in Westminster) has acquitted himself well - among other things immediately suspending one of his MPs who broke the lockdown rules. But let's see what happens. As I write this, I see my phone bleeping "Breaking news - Sturgeon to give evidence to inquiry."
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Heid the Ba » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:09 am

I must admit I'm not fully up to speed on it but there is a lot of "he said, she said". The BBC is living up to its reputation as the information wing of the Tory Party so anything they say should be taken with a pinch of salt and the Guardian generally ignores Scotland.

I think Sturgeon will survive and lead the party into the May elections. If that goes badly she'll stand down.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:11 pm

I've been following this closely for a long time. Yes, the BBC are (as usual) barking for the Tories - but there is a lot to this, and the media has only recently started reporting on it (I suspect to try to harm the SNP and, by extension, the will for independence, in the upcoming Scottish elections). However, from all I've read over the last several months it does look like Nicola Sturgeon is up to her neck in a criminal conspiracy to remove Alex Salmond from politics for whatever reason. She most certainly has committed numerous breaches of the ministerial code, and she should resign. Pretty much the entire Scottish Government, and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service seem to be corrupt. Much as it pains me to say it. Greatest fear is that the UK Gov use this a stick with which to batter the devolved Scottish Parliament, closing it down.

ETA - As for a replacement leader, it has to be somebody who genuinely wants independence and will be seen to do something about it. For all their harrumphing, the SNP (and I say this as a member) have brought us no closer to independence whatsoever than we were in 2014, having pissed away several electoral mandates. I have no idea who that should be. Joanna Cherry perhaps, or Angus MacNeil.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Мастер » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:53 pm

Lianachan wrote:Greatest fear is that the UK Gov use this a stick with which to batter the devolved Scottish Parliament, closing it down.


Could that possibly backfire?

One reason people might be against independence is, it's OK, the level of autonomy we have now is enough. So if that gets taken away . . .
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:59 pm

They closed down the Norn Iron equivalent when it turned into a sack of ferrets fighting in a burning skip, so there is some precedent.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Мастер » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:15 pm

Lianachan wrote:They closed down the Norn Iron equivalent when it turned into a sack of ferrets fighting in a burning skip, so there is some precedent.


But there isn't really too much of an independence movement there, right? I know there has been a join-Ireland movement since the day the Norn was created, but they don't seem to have gotten anything.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:32 pm

Closing down the Scottish Parliament would be a democratic outrage, but UK gov could see it as a chance to kill routes to independence stone dead and be worth it overall.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Richard A » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:52 pm

Norn Iron is something else. Neither side wants independence, true. But at the same time, the Prods for decades were very happy to run the place in a way they knew they'd never get away with much of the mainland. They're proud to be British - they call themselves Unionists and the more extreme ones even Loyalists - but they didn't want some of the liberal laws the British Parliament passed. So they were definitely pro-devolution. As for the Catholics, many want to join the Republic (although some don't like the Republic's tax policies) but many of those see devolution, with a guaranteed stake for them in it, as an acceptable compromise. At least for now.

The Guardian put it well. "Margaret Thatcher famously said that Northern Ireland is as British as Finchley. The problem is it's not - and never has been."
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 pm

This has all got much more interesting, with the reappearance of Alex Salmond on the political scene. I've left the SNP, just couldn't stand it anymore. I've joined the (list only) Alba Party and will be voting SNP 1 (through gritted teeth and for the last time) and Alba 2.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Richard A » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:04 am

Yes, Salmond being cleared and forming a new party does shake things up. I guess it remains to be seen whether the Alba Party splits the pro-independence vote or whether Salmond can eclipse the SNP in the way that Farage and his Brexit Party sent UKIP into oblivion.

It's a shame. From here, I thought Nicola Sturgeon came across as a good leader, using the power she does have to enact good, progressive policies - until she fell out with Alex Salmond. Interestingly, I remember seeing stickers during the last Indyref campaign saying "Kingdom of Scotland" - I wonder whether Salmond, now he's head of his own party again, will continue with that.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:08 am

Alba aren't standing any candidates for constituency seats, just the regional list, so there's no splitting of the vote. They will take list votes from the SNP - that's exactly the point. Because of the way the system works here, doing well in constituency seats means it's harder to win list seats regardless of number of votes. That's why "snp 1 & 2" lets in unionist list candidates. Alba are giving the best possible chance of a huge pro independence majority. Unfortunately the SNP is now a personality cult, and many members have a pathological hatred of Alex Salmond and will never vote for anything he's associated with.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Heid the Ba » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:33 am

I'll be voting the same way, though without joining Alba. I don't think either side is in the right and battle lines are hardening for no good reason. Voting Alba in the list is the only way to get round the gerrymandered system to prevent an independence majority.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:45 am

Regarding the SNP becoming a personality cult, these are from their party political broadcast.

Image
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Heid the Ba » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:03 am

My list candidates:
Abolish the Scottish Parliament, Unionist Fuskstains

Alba, SNP splitters

All for Unity, Unionist Fuckstain splitters

Animal Welfare, well meaning timewasters

Communist Party of Britain, noble toilers for the proletariat

Freedom Alliance, anti-mask gobshites

Reform UK, Brexit cockwombles

Scottish Conservatives, aye, them.

Scottish Family, who knows, probably anti-LGBT+

Scottish Greens, much worse than they should be

Scottish Labour, Red Tories

Scottish Liberal Democrats, bland Tory Light

Scottish Libertarian, oh for fuck's sake

Scottish National Party, Stalinist personality cult

Scottish Renew, bland Tory Light splitters

Scottish Women's Equality, well meaning vote splitters

Social Democratic, bland Tory Light splitters' splitters

UKIP, aye, them.

Individual regional candidate: Ashley Graczyk. Not a clue.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:24 am

Yeah, list vote pretty much a very obvious thing. If you’re pro-indy and would like to actually see something done about it, it’s Alba. If you’re pro-union there’s a range of options depending on how much of a cunt you are and exactly which groups of people you hate.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Мастер » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:53 am

I can’t help but think of the Jewish rebel groups in Life of Brian, who spent all their time fighting each other instead of the Romans.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Heid the Ba » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:00 am

Lianachan wrote:Yeah, list vote pretty much a very obvious thing. If you’re pro-indy and would like to actually see something done about it, it’s Alba. If you’re pro-union there’s a range of options depending on how much of a cunt you are and exactly which groups of people you hate.

Yes and yes. It is odd when most parties are standing for seats in an institution they don't want to exist or want to be subservient to another.
I fear the SNP/Alba schism will lead to a Life of Brian situation.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Heid the Ba » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:48 pm

I looked up who Ashley Graczyk is, from her website:
"Ashley Graczyk is an Independent Councillor for the City of Edinburgh representing the Sighthill-Gorgie ward. First elected to office in 2017 as a Conservative Party Councillor, Ashley was shocked to see the impact of a number of UK Government policies on disabled and vulnerable people first hand through case work in her constituency."
I'm guessing she somehow never read the manifesto or looked at any policies before standing as a Tory.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Lianachan » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:19 pm

Must’ve had herself one of these moments.

Image

Digging a little deeper, I’ve found she’s now pro-indy.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Мастер » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:39 pm

Lianachan wrote:Digging a little deeper, I’ve found she’s now pro-indy.


A Tory who is pro-indy?

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Re: SNP wars

Postby Heid the Ba » Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:37 am

Independent now, she left the Tories when she found out about their policies.
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Richard A » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:21 am

That happens. Around here, there was another one: Heidi Allen - Tory MP for South Cambs. Her heart was in the right place - she should never have been a Tory. She did vote for some pretty dreadful Tory policies, but I suspect because she felt she had to. Finally she couldn't take it any more and she left as one of the band - some ex-Tories, some ex-Labour - that formed first an Independent Group and then a new party, Change UK, which fizzled out pretty quickly. I suspect Reform UK will fizzle out as well soon after the May elections. Even Nigel Farage's heart isn't really in it - he has more TV appearances advertising his new business than he does promoting Reform UK!
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Re: SNP wars

Postby Richard A » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:28 am

As for Scottish Labour, I see Heid's point. What is it with Ian Murray? Supposedly a Labour MP, but actually he seems incapable of promoting anything at all other than himself: "I, Ian Murray, am fantastic. I really am." He seems to running a one-man personality cult of his own. I saw him on Question Time and he didn't need a BBC moderator to make him look bad - he did it on his own. "What should Labour's policy on this or that Scottish issue be?" "Well, if they'd elected me as Leader as they should have done ..."
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